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From:
Subject: Re: Dal Riata Modal Haplogroup
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 14:05:29 -0800
Colin wrote -
"Is the name "Dal Riata" supposed to be synonymous with "Dalriada" the
ancient Irish territory that corresponds roughly with the modern County
Antrim in Northern Ireland?
If so how can it be that so few of the Dal Riata Modal Haplogroup are
found in Ireland?"
Thank you for posting this question Colin. It is essential to the
question at hand.
For those of us with this modal haplotype, the questions being
discussed in this thread comprise not only questions important to our
genealogical research, but to a large degree, questions important to
Irish/Scottish history. To restate Colin's question, WHAT ABOUT THE
ULSTER PLANTATION, an event that transformed Irish history within
recent historic memory? The Ulster Plantation involved the movement
of many thousands of families from the western Scottish Lowlands (as
well as some hundreds of families from the western Highlands) to the
northeastern region of Ireland, with all the resultant socio-
political ramifications. As any student of American history knows,
the diaspora of the "Ulster Scots" (aka "Scotch-Irish" in the USA) to
the western hemisphere, & especially to the USA, had a huge impact on
the course of history here as well. I wouldn't even hazard a guess as
to the number of people in the American South who claim at least some
Scotch-Irish descent. For many of us, surnames associated with the
"Scotch-Irish" dominate our pedigree.
A central tenet of this discussion is the cultural identification of
the people of both western Scotland & their descendants, the "Ulster
Scots" of Northern Ireland & points beyond. After twenty years of
research, I have yet to determine the origin of my earliest known
direct paternal line ancestor beyond the point at which he first
appears in the records on the Tennessee frontier. He was a surveyor,
literate & held many public offices, but we have yet to discover
where he came from prior to appearing in Tennessee in 1801. This is
not uncommon in the Scotch-Irish. In their own time, they were known
as "rough & tumble" & the first application of the term "Redneck" was
to Scotch_Irish Presbyterians of North Carolina. They are almost
invariably described as "fiercely self sufficient or fiercely
independent". Most historians who address the early history of these
people simply describe them as Gaelic - people who spoke a common
language & shared a common culture. There is little or no argument
that the Gaelic spoken in Ireland & the Gaelic of Scotland are
essentially dialects of the same language. As other historians have
pointed out, the Irish sea was not a BARRIER between southwestern
Scotland & northeastern Ireland, it was a ROAD, a commercial lane
that has been in use for many centuries. I'm well aware of the
persistent & oft quoted dissociation of language/culture from genetic
origin, but I still believe that it is not the exception that defines
the rule. At the point in history that a culture arises, it certainly
is the language that defines the culture, & it certainly is
associated with a specific ethnic group - that is the definition of
ethnicity. So I reaffirm my belief that the Scots of Argyll & the
Ulster Scots of Northern Ireland were one & the same - Gaels.
Now back to the question raised by Colin, what about the Ulster
Scots? Why aren't they showing up in the Dal Riata Modal? Short
answer - they are, & very much so. My haplotype is very close to the
25 marker modal, varying only at DYS 389 (mine is 13,31/modal is
13,30) & DYS 464d (mine is 18/modal is 17). Several of my near
matches have clear paper trails to northern Ireland & others have
clear paper trails to western Scotland. Some of people associated
with my Tagert line have paper trails to Northern Ireland as well,
enough to establish them as an "American" clan of Ulster Scot
descent. I have been giving some thought to the variations from the
modal at DYS 389 & 464d. DYS 389=13/31 accounts for about 8 percent
of R1b. Is there anyone interested in pursuing this with a
statistics? I just don't have the time. I don't have any real
statistics to back up this idea, but a brief unscientific survey
suggests to me that the DYS 389=13/31 represents a later mutation of
that allele within the western Scots/Ulster Scots, following the idea
that the Dal Riata modal represents a split from the original WAMH. I
have an Excel file with data on this group which I have recently
modified & corrected. If anyone is interested, please contact me & I
will provide you with a copy. I may try to post it on the web site
provided by DNA Heritage as well. Has anyone else looked at DYS
389=13/31 within R1b as a whole? Is that value strongest in British
or Scottish surnames?
Hats off to those in this thread who are pursuing the tangled web of
early Gaelic history. It's clearly a time consuming task. To equate
the Scots R1b modal with Gaels may be a stretch, but I think there is
a kernel of truth there. While Gaelic as the common language of early
Ireland & Scotland is a common enough idea, it somehow seems odd to
think of the speakers of that language as a cohesive ethnic group.
Why is that? Perhaps it only seems odd to us who have been so far
separated from that culture by geography & history. I think that what
has persisted among those of this group, even after the loss of
language & external vestiges of culture, are the core values of that
culture - the world view. I think that is what has changed least down
through the centuries. We still believe what we believe in a world
that continually tries to discredit & invalidate that perspective. We
are still Ulster Scots. Happy Hunting, Pat Tagert
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