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Archiver > WARBRIDES > 2006-08 > 1156652070


From: "Debbie Beavis" <>
Subject: List of Ships and dates
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:14:30 +1000
In-Reply-To: <20060826162821.90695.qmail@web30912.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Hi Michele and list

This is a long posting, but I feel that it is warranted in order to explain
the problems I have with the list in question.

I know that women do often give conflicting dates and that does make it hard
when we try to help women to remember details. It concerns me then that
lists that would seem to be 'official' and fully checked, actually contain
discrepancies and that no warning to that effect accompanies them. An
unsuspecting researcher may fall into the trap of believing everything a
document may say, purely because it is Government-generated. I have learnt
the hard way that that is not necessarily true. A few years ago I wrote a
book about that very subject - while it is about Titanic not war bride
ships, it's largely a discussion about the documents themselves and what
they show, how they were compiled back in the offices of shipping companies
and Government departments, and the point of the book was to show how one
cannot just take one Government document and assume that it is automatically
correct before it is compared with other sources. Often when they are
compared, all manner of discrepancies appear.

Because of the nature of my own research I don't actually need to use dates
given by war brides though that can of course be helpful - my research is
with the original documents. The passenger lists I use often still have the
front page attached and that has written on it in handwriting, the date of
departure written at the actual time of that departure. Interestingly
though, the passenger list often also has letters inside covering a span of
time of perhaps a fortnight, where sailing dates were changed often several
times before the ship actually sailed. Sometimes also, the list is headed
'Queen Mary' (for example) but many of the pages inside actually say
'Saturnia' and a different date entirely, neither of which has been
corrected. Just an example, but it shows that the women were originally
entered to sail on one ship but ended up sailing on another, and if the
papers later get muddled, one might never realise if the details haven't
been corrected.

Once the lists were received at the Statistical Office of the Board of Trade
(as British law required) the sailing dates were entered into a register,
known now as BT32. That date should read the same as the date on the
passenger list, because it was the actual passenger list that the clerk used
in order to figure out the date that he needed to write in his register. But
yes, you've guessed it, sometimes the date he wrote in his register differs
from what it says on the passenger list! Did he make a mistake, or had he
been told something different? Either way, that means there are already two
different dates from two Government departments, and they can't both be
right!

There are other sources of information of which a third is Lloyd's of London
whose interest lay in the safe transit of ships insured by their members.
They needed to know exactly where any ship was at every possible time and
one of the ways in which they knew this was by the use of 'speakings' (in
lay terms the records of ship messages from Captain to shore and to other
ships) in order to get their dates. So to give you an example, suppose we
know that the Captain of the Willard A Holbrook 'spoke' to the Captain of
another ship in the English Channel on 29 March, then we may assume that a
Southampton departure date of 30 March cannot be correct.

I would not dream of suggesting that Vera's own _research_ is wrong, nor
certainly that mine is right! I am merely concerned that it is perhaps
unwise to rely on one set of records when, by checking with other records,
we find that the facts do not correspond. They cannot both be correct. I am
often asked to provide the date of arrival of such and such a ship into New
York or Halifax or wherever. I daren't do that, and - again no criticism of
Vera's research - it may be unwise to rely too heavily on the records in the
country of _arrival_ (ie America) with regard to the date of departure from
another country ie England, many miles away and in a totally different time
zone. Mostly I hesitate to state absolutely a date of departure, unless I
have considerable corroborating evidence or the strongest circumstantial
evidence, or witness reports that give documentary or other written proof.
But I find it's usually better to hedge one's bets!

So, for some of those dates on the list, I would not absolutely pass an
opinion if I do not have sufficient proof one way or the other, so it would
be entirely wrong of me to comment. Some dates I would agree with
absolutely, but a number of others I would say are definitely wrong.

There are a number of other clear errors which I do feel need urgent
correction. Again, it is very possibly the original document that Vera used
which is incorrect so I would not suggest that her own research is at fault
but it still needs correcting! For example - her list apparently says that
"Gibbins" departed from Southampton on 7 March. That is incorrect. That
voyage actually left from Belfast in northern Ireland, on a different date
and all the girls boarded there. Again, the voyage on 6 April was not from
Southampton but from Belfast.

Also, she apparently records the sailing of the Queen Elizabeth on 4 May.
This was definitely not the Queen Elizabeth, it was the Queen Mary. I can
see that the whole of February has been omitted and that may be deliberate
on either her or your part. However, there is one important apparent
omission that needs sorting out - Cristobal's sailing of 27 May from Le
Havre and Bremerhaven should also include the fact that she sailed from
Southampton on 22 May.It would seem probable that the date of 27 May relates
to the fact that she very likely called in to Le Havre and Bremerhaven later
and spent some time in those ports before finally departing on 27th. But I
do feel that the record needs to be put straight there quite urgently if
indeed it has been omitted from her original list, for both the sake of
accuracy and for the 209 brides and children who boarded in Southampton.

Finally it concerns me greatly that incorrect names have apparently been
given for many of the vessels on the list which is extremely misleading. I
get a large postbag of letters from women (or their families) who are trying
to recall the name of a ship and ask if I can help. If I were to offer the
name (for example) "Holbrook" it may mean little but if I suggest "Willard A
Holbrook" then it suddenly sounds right. More importantly though,
incorrectly naming a ship can mean that a completely different ship is
identified - a classic example is the reference to the ship "Alexander."
Which ship is that - the Edmund B Alexander, or the Alexander Patch, or
neither of them? The "Washington" - the George Washington was an elderly
passenger liner whereas the Washington was a battleship...the ship in
question here is actually the ex passenger ship George Washington, but as
any of the girls who sailed on HMS Victorious from Australia to the UK in
1946 will tell you, it wasn't unknown for warships to be used for bride
transport so it's unwise to assume anything).

These naming errors may seem not to be important, but actually it does
matter a great deal. I am often also asked to provide ship details along
with a passenger list, and I usually know which of several possible ships I
am looking for, but what if it's not me who needs to look it up? If a ship
is wrongly named, they will have trouble finding it. And it needs to be
spelt correctly too.... the "Ericsson" is actually the "John Ericcson",
(note the C and the S).

I hope this long posting explains why I am so concerned that the list is
published without checking for errors and discrepancies in date, port and
name. Thanks to Michele for adding the caution now, and hopefully the list
will give some pointers to those searching for their ships.

Regards

Debbie Beavis
Warbrides









-----Original Message-----
From: Michele, host of AWBE [mailto:]
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2006 2:28 AM
To: Debbie Beavis; WarBrides List
Subject: RE: [WarBrides] List of Ships and dates


Sorry, for the misunderstanding. This is not a complete list, but it might
be of some help to anyone researching. The source of this information is at
the bottom of the page and is only a starting point to help with your
research. As you will find from my passenger lists many war brides give
many different dates for when the left or arrived to the US.

It is still a good source for trying to find a missing love one.
It is not documented research.

Michele



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