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Archiver > SOUTH-AFRICA > 2004-05 > 1084150564


From: Andrew Rodger <>
Subject: Re: [ZA] War Dates
Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 10:56:34 +1000
In-Reply-To: <001001c43524$2103abc0$9d98ef9b@TelkomSA2156>


No, that was the Armistice, the time when fighting actually stopped.

This is perhaps more to the point than when the treaty was signed. In
Korea, also, there was no treaty, and the North at least still considers
itself at war, but the south is trying to make overtures. As long as
there is no fighting going on, the presence or absence of a treaty
perhaps doesn't make a lot of difference -- many treaties in the past
haven't prevented conflict from breaking out again!

I think World War II must be considered well and truly over -- after
all, the UK and both of its main opponents are united in the European
Union! But it is strange that SA and other Empire countries were
automatically in the war when it broke out but signed the subsequent
treaties separately.

On Sunday, May 9, 2004, at 03:44 AM, Becky Horne wrote:

> Hi Guys
>
> Wasn't a Peace Treaty for WWI signed on the 11th hour of the 11th day
> of the
> 11th month?
> Or have I missed the bus again? :o)
>
> Regards
> Becky
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hetta Scholtz" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, May 08, 2004 5:19 PM
> Subject: RE: [ZA] War Dates
>
>
>> The following excerpts may help.
>>
>> ABW: 9 Oct 1899 Tvl send ultimatum to British agent in Pretoria 48
>> hours
>> later they were formally at war.31 May 1902 eleven o'clock the night
>> the
>> peace treaty was signed.
>>
>> WW1 on 4 Aug 1914 the British ultimatum to Germany expired and the
>> Union
>> like the rest of the Britsh Empire was at war. 28 July, 1919), Smuts
>> and
>> Botha signed the Treaty of Versailles.
>> Muller,C.F.J , ed., 500 Years - A History of South Africa, Third
>> Edition,
>> (Pretoria: JL van Schaik) 1969.
>> the treaty was signed on the 28th June 1919,
>> Van Wijk, Theo; Boucher, Maurice, eds., Europe 1848-1980, (Pretoria: JL
> van
>> Schaik) 1985.
>>
>> WW2 It was a divided South Africa which entered the Second World War
>> on 6
>> September, 1939.
>> Muller,C.F.J , ed., 500 Years - A History of South Africa, Third
>> Edition,
>> (Pretoria: JL van Schaik) 1969.
>>
>> As far as I can remember the Second World War did not officially end
> because
>> a peace treaty was never signed. The defeated nations just
>> surrendered.29
>> July 1946 a peace conference in Paris, treaties with Germany's allies
>> but
> no
>> treaty with Germany.
>>
>> Hetta Scholtz
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Andrew Rodger [mailto:]
>> Sent: 05 Mei 2004 03:10
>> To:
>> Subject: Re: [ZA] War Dates
>>
>>
>> Various others have answered, but here is my two-bobs'-worth:
>>
>> I believe that, constitutionally, SA was at war with Germany at the
>> same
>> time as the UK declared war, because, although they were
>> self-governing,
>> SA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Newfoundland (then not yet a
>> Province of Canada) did not have "Dominion Status" until the Statute of
>> Westminster was passed, I think in 1931.
>>
>> In 1939, Newfoundland was a Province of Canada; the rest by then had
>> Dominion Status and could therefore declare war separately, and did.
>> Robert Menzies's speech to the Australian people on this topic as in
>> error: he said (It is my melancholy duty to inform you that Great
>> Britain has declared war on Germany and consequently this country is
>> also at war." In fact Australia was at war because the Menzies
>> Government had declared war in its own right, although of course they
>> would not have done so if Britain had not. (His brother Frank, who was
>> a constitutional lawyer by trade, would not have made that mistake; he
>> was later one of the draftsmen of the constitution of Kenya.)
>>
>> Both World Wars ended on common dates for all the Allies (two different
>> dates, VE Day and VJ Day, in the case of the Second World War), because
>> the end of the war was brought about by the German surrender in each
>> case and the Japanese surrender in the second case.
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 4, 2004, at 10:46 AM, Keith Meintjes wrote:
>>
>>> Does anyone have the dates (dd/mm/yyyy) of the start and end of the
>>> following:
>>>
>>> 1. The Anglo-Boer War
>>> 2. World War 1 (South Africa's involvement)
>>> 3. World War 2 (South Africa's involvement)
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Keith
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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