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From:
Subject: RE: [HUNGARY-L] Turks were invaders then and now?
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:16:12 +0200


Dear colleagues,

Roy - your arguments are excellent.
Moderate Islam and certainly the largest country with a significant
working democratic system like Turkey should get all possible support.

They show the way out of the prospective calamities of a continuing
world wide conflict.

Dov Winer
Israel


-----Original Message-----
From: Roy Johnson [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 3:26 AM
To:
Subject: RE: [HUNGARY-L] Turks were invaders then and now?

I would like to make two points:

(1) If Europeans can lay aside their anger about the horrors wrought by Nazi
Germany in the 20th century and unite with the Germans, why cannot
Hungarians lay aside their anger about horrors that happened centuries ago?
I said "lay aside", not forget. We should never forget the horrors of the
concentration camps and attempted genocide. But as we do not hold today's
Germans responsible for those atrocities, why hold today's Turks responsible
for what their ancestors did?

The Turks were the extremists of their day. They invaded a Muslim world that
was rich, cultured, and generally tolerant, with Christians, Jews, and
Muslims studying together at the great Muslim universities in Toledo,
Baghdad, and Timbuktu, and mostly living in harmony. Now, the Turks have
become the most westernized and modern of Muslims and their country is a
secular democracy. They have absorbed many Western ways and are as much
Western as Eastern.

(2) I believe it is not correct to speak of the horrors that "Islam" brought
to America. I have Muslim friends who denounced the 9/11 attacks and were as
horrified as I was. I have read the Koran and several books on the history
of Islam, and I do believe these atrocities and present beheadings, etc.,
are expressly forbidden. The Koran spells out numerous limits (no deliberate
taking of innocent life, no use of fire, etc.), nearly all of which have
been violated by the terrorists.

(3) If we remember the horrors, we also need to remember the huge benefits
brought by Islam during the Islamic "Golden Age" before the coming of the
Turks, and at a time when Europe was sunk in the "dark ages." Islamic
civilization was the richest and most advanced in the world at that time.
Christians, Jews, and Muslims studied together at the great Muslim
universities at Toledo (Spain), Timbuktu, and Baghdad. We patterned our
university system after theirs. We learned Arabic numerals (like to try
doing math in Roman numerals?), paper and printing (brought via the Muslims
from China), the concept of the printing press, much medical knowledge
(Muslims and Jews trained by the Muslims were the most sought after
physicians), and a host of other things that escape me at the moment.

Fanaticism is the product of frustration and chaos. Radicals there will
always be but in normal times they have few followers. But if a young
person's life is a living hell and some wild eyed imam tells him he will go
straight to heaven if he blows himself up, he is not likely to study the
Koran closely to see if that is what it really says. We will have radical
Islam as long as the middle east is in turmoil; if a period of peace can be
achieved, it will die down.

We desperately need reconciliation, not rhetoric that reflects harsh
feelings toward a modern nation because of what their ancestors did or
blames an entire faith because of the actions of some. Turkey is a land
between east and west. Do we want to pull them toward the west or push them
toward the east?

Roy Johnson
Former Hungarian linguist, trained at Army Language School, Monterey, CA
Radio intercept operator/translator 1957-59



-----Original Message-----
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 7:41 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [HUNGARY-L] Turks were invaders then and now?

Interesting article, especially in light of the loaded phrases ("uglier,
intolerant aspect," "deep-seated prejudice." "Turkophobia," "far right
mischief
maker") used to describe those opposing Turkish entry in the EU.
Those of us of Hungarian descent can never forget the horrors the Turks
inflicted on our ancestral homeland. And those of us who are Americans can
never
forget the horrors Islam has brought to our shores.
All present-day Turks are NOT villains, but neither are they Europeans.
They
are Middle Easterners with a religion, culture and heritage foreign--and
usually hostile--to ours.

In a message dated 9/22/2004 1:55:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
writes:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/turkey/story/0,12700,1309697,00.html


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