GREATWAR-L Archives

Archiver > GREATWAR > 2005-03 > 1110450082


From: patrick holland <>
Subject: Re: Fw: [WW1] ANZAC myths and beyond.
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2005 18:21:22 +0800
References: <003d01c524b3$b223e550$0200000a@barmur>
In-Reply-To: <003d01c524b3$b223e550$0200000a@barmur>


Barry,

I hoped that my comments about Gallipoli might make you pop up again as
you did 'nt reply to my posting to you about the battle of Nez.

You say in your latest posting that :

" .... surprisingly few Australians really know the extent of their
country's sacrifice during that war. Many are unaware of the AIF's
activities in France and Flanders for example. " I totally disagree with
you. I suppose that it might be true for a few Aussies, possibly like some
of those who live in tropical Cairns, but from my experience I know that
the Australian public is very well informed, from an Aussie
perspective, about the events you mention.

To save repeating myself, here is what I said to Fred in my reply to his
posting about your comments :

" In my experience Australians are reminded every year of the sacrifices
the WW1 Diggers made in those places Barry mention by the wonderful ANZAC
day and Armistice day ceremonies and parades held in every State and
Territory throughout Australia which are also shown on TV for those who can
' t attend the activities. It 's great to see the few Diggers who are still
with us being treated with the honour and respect they deserve. I was
delighted when the French bestowed their prestigious, Legion D ' Honneur
medal on them. It ' s also good to see so many young people taking part in
the celebrations. It seems that Barry has missed all these events. "

The above comments also rejects your snide attempt to discredit the remarks
I made about the interview I mentioned with the old Digger.

Here is what you said :

" ...... I will simply say that we have reached a very sad day indeed,
when a man who was actually at Gallipoli, is held up to ridicule ...... "

I never said that or implied it in any way so don ' t say that I did.

The comment which made me reply to your earlier posting, about the battle
of Nez was, I quote :

" ...... I can understand why English viewers might feel offended by what
are misrepresentations which don't cast the British in a favourable light. "

In particular, the remark, ".... misrepresentations which don't cast the
British in a favourable light. ".

I replied to you solely to point out to you and any body else who reads
your stuff a few facts in an attempt to correct some of those
misrepresentations which you referred to. I was n' t surprised that you did
n' t reply.

You mention that your ggrandfather was in the 8th. Light Horse which is a
Victorian Light Horse Regiment. You might be interested to look at this web
site about them.

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~ianmac/horse.html

I noticed that there is a photo of a Charles Edward Williamson, a POM who,
aged 30, enlisted with the 8th Light Horse regiment on the 8th Sept 1914.
He served with them at Gallipoli. I ' ve also read that 1 in 8 of the men
who served in the Western Australian Light Horse regiments were of English
origin and as I 've mentioned elsewhere 50 per cent of the addresses of the
next of kin of ANZACS who fought at Gallipoli were located in Britain. So
it seems that there was a fair sprinkling of Brits who served as members of
the ANZAC forces in Gallipoli.

At the battle of Nek, on the 7th Aug. 1915. the Victorian and West
Australian Light Horse attacked the Turkish positions :

This quote from the web site listed below describes what happened to them :

" in some four to six minutes both regiments virtually ceased to exist, yet
no man held back, all ANZAC's went with their mates into a storm of machine
gun and small arms fire. "

The mates which the article refers to included your ggrandfather Barry,
Charles Williamson and many other members of the Light Horse who were
British who all fought and died together as ANZACs at the bloody battle of
Nek.
http://www.anzacday.biz/anzac_history/spirit_of_anzac.htm

Unfortunately this fact seems to have been has been ignored by most
military historians and politicians in Australia who have fed the public
with an incomplete picture of the Gallipoli campaign.

Maybe if these facts about Gallipoli were taught in Aussie schools then
perhaps the, " misrepresentations which don't cast the British in a
favourable light. " to which you refer would died out and with it the
grudge which many Australians, across generations, seem to bear towards the
POMs because of the heavy casualties the ANZACs suffered at Gallipoli and
elsewhere in WW1, which I have detected during my long sojourn here and to
which Alan Osborn refers to in his posting about his experience when he
mentioned Gallipoli to an Aussie while on holiday in NZ.

Patrick.

Perth, Western Australia.



At 10:24 PM 3/9/05, you wrote:

>----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry" <>
>To: "patrick holland" <>
>Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2005 12:22 AM
>Subject: Re: [WW1] ANZAC myths and beyond.
>
>
>>Greetings to all,
>>It's hard to know where to start re this thread.
>>I would say to Patrick, that if his point is simply that we should all
>>strive to make known the whole truth about WW1, then I'm with him all the way.
>>Australia has it's share of myths regarding its history, not limited to
>>Gallipoli or WW1. I seriously doubt that we're alone in this.
>>On the other side of the coin, surprisingly few Australians really know
>>the extent of their country's sacrifice during that war. Many are
>>unaware of the AIF's activities in France and Flanders for example.
>>As to the interview with a Gallipoli veteran to which Patrick referred, I
>>will simply say that we have reached a very sad day indeed, when a man
>>who was actually at Gallipoli, is held up to ridicule in this way, for
>>doing no more than expressing an honest opinion which he happens to
>>hold. He might be wrong, but for all any of us know, there might be good
>>reasons, known to him, for his opinion.
>>
>>Patrick wrote:
>>"> Here 's another example, late last year I replied to an Aussie who had
>>sent a posting to the group about the battle of Nez at Gallipoli during which
>>>the members of at least 2 West Australian Light Horse battalions were
>>>among those massacred as the Diggers were ordered to advance in a
>>>straight line into a wall of Turkish machine gun fire. Four lines of
>>>Diggers were mown down without any of them reaching the Turkish
>>>positions before the attack was called off. The writer made a snide
>>>reference to the Brits so I sent him a few facts, pointing out that over
>>>100 British Regiments had fought at Gallipoli. He never replied".
>>
>>I don't know if I'm the Aussie referred to here. I did send a post to
>>the Great War Community about the Nek, to which Patrick replied. For my
>>part, I'm well aware of the British involvement at Gallipoli. I saw no
>>point in replying. I don't believe there was any "snide" reference to
>>the Brits in my post. I'll paste it below so readers can judge for
>>themselves. My post was in reply to the moderator who had asked about
>>WW1 movies. I referred to the movie "Gallipoli", which, as I stated
>>then, contains a number of historical inaccuracies.
>>Cheers,
>>Barry in Cairns Australia.
>>My original post is below:
>>Dear Claire and all,
>>I'm not a great movie buff, so I waited a while to see if some more
>>knowledgeable souls might get things moving.
>>
>>To my knowledge, movies about WW1 are quite rare - compare those about WW2.
>>The cynical side of me thinks this is in no small measure due to the
>>relatively small part played by the US in the conflict. Perhaps too, by the
>>time WW2 was being fought, Hollywood was in full swing.
>>
>>Australia, where I live, has made some movies during the past two decades.
>>"Gallipoli" is probably the most famous. There were of course a number of
>>historical inaccuracies in the movie, but at least it drew attention here to
>>events other than the landing and the evacuation. Many of you probably know
>>that the movie depicts the charge by the 8th and 10th Light Horse Regiments
>>across the Nek on August 7th 1915. I can understand why English viewers
>>might feel offended by what are misrepresentations which don't cast the
>>British in a favourable light.
>>I watched this movie as a teenager. My Great Grandfather was wounded during
>>that attack- with the 8th Light Horse. In military terms it was a very
>>small action - each regiment contributed 300 men. Of the 300 men of the
>>8th, 154 were killed and 80 wounded. The movie certainly shows the reality
>>of that part of the situation, the useless sacrifice of young lives. I
>>don't know what my ancestor would have said - he never talked about his
>>experiences, and I don't think he would have watched the movie anyway. I
>>found watching the charge a very emotional experience, knowing that a member
>>of my own family had been involved.
>>
>>I don't really know whether a movie can depict the true situation. I'm not
>>at all sure that someone who hasn't experienced it can really say that they
>>understand, though I know many of us try.
>>
>>I didn't know my Great Grandfather. He died in 1967, when I was only 3. My
>>Mother grew up with him. She knew he'd been in the war, at Gallipoli, but
>>knew nothing about what had happened.
>>
>>I once saw a movie version of the classic book "All Quiet On The Western
>>Front". I found it to be a pretty realistic portrayal of conditions. It's
>>probably the movie I'd recommend to anyone who wanted to get an idea of what
>>life was like in the trenches.
>>
>>Ok, I'll finish. Sorry for the long rave.
>>Barry.
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "patrick holland" <>
>>To: <>
>>Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:37 PM
>>Subject: Re: [WW1] ANZAC myths and beyond.
>>>
>>>
>>>Later in the same year I watched with great interest as one of the last
>>>of the 100 plus years old Diggers who had fought at Gallipoli was
>>>interviewed on TV. Just before he finished talking he made a reference
>>>to the Brits who were there. " We were much better than them he said,
>>>much better " and so its seems its comments like that from people like
>>>him which have created and fed the Aussie one eyed myth about their
>>>alleged superiority as soldiers at Gallipoli compared to the Brits.
>>>
>>>The result of all this is that nowadays, whenever I hear anyone
>>>attempting to discredit the Brits who fought at Gallipoli based on their
>>>own ill informed and ignorant knowledge of the campaign I respond in an
>>>attempt to put the record straight. I don ' t include you among such
>>>people. Your posting however about , John Simpson Kirkpatrick
>>>(1892-1915), who enjoys a renown today as perhaps Australia's greatest
>>>war hero, gave me another opportunity to point out that this undoubted
>>>hero was in fact a POM.
>>>
>>>That ' s all my posting was about. Defending the honour and reputation
>>>of the Brits who fought and died at Gallipoli. If it upsets the Aussies
>>>to have their myths about Gallipoli challenged then let them teach
>>>their kids the whole story and we can then equally share in honouring
>>>all those soldiers who so bravely fought and died in the Dardenelles
>>>campaign.
>>>
>>>Regards.
>>>
>>>Patrick.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>11:05 PM 3/8/05, you wrote:
>>>>Patrick,
>>>> I seemed to have opened up a sore nerve with you. I was not under the
>>>>impression I was doing any "Pom bashing", but just bringing peoples
>>>>attention to the article that appeared in the Sunday paper. I assume you
>>>>yourself have read the article or can get a copy of it in Perth, and
>>>>thereby
>>>>point out via your research where the reporter may have misrepresented the
>>>>true facts about John Simpson Kirkpatrick.
>>>> Yes I did know that he was born in England as of course so many were that
>>>>joined the Australian Army at the time, and yes I do know that the
>>>>contribution by Australia to Gallipoli was small compared to that of
>>>>Britain.
>>>> The purpose of my message was to bring to attention the story of Simpson
>>>>and his Donkey to others outside of Australia who may never have heard of
>>>>him. Up until Sunday I assumed that this man by his very many brave acts of
>>>>courage, over 300 lives he saved according to the article, but was
>>>>astounded
>>>>that he wasn't awarded the VC in 1915 for which he was recommended by his
>>>>commanding officer at the time.
>>>> Before I finish I would like to advise you that I too was born in
>>>> England,
>>>>and moved here in 1969. My grandfather lost a leg at Poziers in 1916, his
>>>>brother was totally blinded elsewhere in France shortly afterwards, and
>>>>their father, my great grandfather, was one of those "Poms" who were
>>>>sent to
>>>>the "Dardanelles". Fortunately all survived to live long and very happy and
>>>>productive lives well after 1918, and for whom I have the utmost
>>>>respect and
>>>>admiration.
>>>> Perhaps in the 40 years you have been here you have experienced a little
>>>>more "pommie bashing" than I, and personally I have never taken it to
>>>>heart,
>>>>nor have I ever heard any with respect to the qualities of the British
>>>>Soldier at Gallipoli or elsewhere for that matter.
>>>>
>>>>Bob Campbell
>>>>Brisbane, Queensland
>>>>(Australian citizen by choice, British by birth)
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: "patrick holland" <>
>>>>To: <>
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:38 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: [WW1] late recognition for John Simpson Kirkpatrick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Living in Australia since 1965, it was inevitable that as a result of
>>>>watching with interest and pleasure may ANZAC day parades that I gradually
>>>>became more aware and interested in the Gallipoli campaign which is not
>>>>celebrated so much in Britain as it is in Australia.
>>>>
>>>>It was with some dismay that I began to hear disparaging comments made by
>>>>some ( and believed by many more ) Australians about the alleged inferior
>>>>performance of the British troops at Gallipoli compared to the heroic
>>>>performance of the Diggers. Even Peter Weir, the Australian director of the
>>>>film, " Gallipoli " inserted a scene in his film which perpetuates the
>>>>myth.
>>>>
>>>>During my long time sojourn Downunder I ' ve got used to many Aussie
>>>>idiosyncrasies, harmless ones like calling someone with red hair, "
>>>>Bluey", less nice are ones are ones like, the cutting down tall poppies
>>>>syndrome. Even Pommie bashing is tolerable but when it becomes nasty and
>>>>turns its spite on the British soldiers who fought and died at Gallipoli
>>>>and then extends to those who fought and died on the battlefields of the
>>>>Western front in France and Flanders, I see red.
>>>>
>>>>Perhaps if we look at a few facts about Gallipoli it will ( or should )
>>>>make some of those un informed Aussies, who without thinking perpetrate
>>>>these shameful ant-British soldier myths about Gallipoli, think again.
>>>>
>>>>For example, I 've read recently that among the Australian troops at
>>>>Galliopoli, fifty per cent of them indicated that their next of kin lived
>>>>in the UK.
>>>>
>>>>Then there 's your story about, John Simpson Kirkpatrick (1892-1915) who
>>>>enjoys a renown today as perhaps Australia's greatest war hero. He was in
>>>>fact a POM who was born in South Shields, England and first came to
>>>>Australia when he was aged 18.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.firstworldwar.com/bio/kirkpatrick.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>==== GREATWAR Mailing List ====
>>>The Boer War has its own list. To join send the word 'subscribe' to
>>>. NOTE: when joining a list always read
>>>instructions carefully re sending messages and especially unsubscribing.
>>>
>>>==============================
>>>Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
>>>last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
>>>http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx
>
>
>
>==== GREATWAR Mailing List ====
>MULTIPLE EMAIL ADDRESSES. Now that many of us have two or three email
>addresses, remember you can only send messages or unsubscribe from the
>address under which you originally joined. Double check if your message
>fails to appear.
>
>==============================
>Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the
>last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more:
>http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

This thread: