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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2006-11 > 1164941022


From: David Faux <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] PubMed abstract: Y chromosomes in Denmark and Italy: anyCimbri connection?
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 18:43:42 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <c33.87f3cea.32a06e45@aol.com>


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Still, in 2007 (the date of publication) I am spending half an hour converting the 2002 YCC values to something we can all understand.

Hg1 = P*
Hg2 = BR (boiling it down, I and I think G)
Hg3 = R1a
Hg9 = J
Hg16 = N3
Hg21 = E* (probably E3b)
Hg26 = K*

The above captioned article typed 11 binary markers so some haplogroups did not appear (one was what we call today R1b1c6).

Unfortunately only 5 Y-STRs were typed - the usual ones.

The authors compared those from Jutland - Himmerland (the area where the Celtic Cimbri resided before merging with the Danes in the 6th Century), with a mixed group from Jutland, with the Italian Cimbri from the Alpine parts of Veneto.

There was a surprising (to me) percentage of R1b in the Italian sample (54%) compared to 36% in Himmerland and 46% in a more general Jutland sample. What is likely mostly haplogroup I, the Danish samples were 46 and 42% respectively versus only 8% in the Italian sample. In relation to R1a, considering that Jutland is part of Scandinavia and only a short distance from Norway and Sweden where about 33% is typical, the best either Danish sample could muster was 6%, and none in the Italian sample. With haplogroup J the Danish/Cimbri sample included 6% (0% in the general Danish sample), whereas the Italian sample sported a large 21% of the total. The general Danish group were the only ones to have N3 among them (2%), but no E*. The Danish/Cimbri group outdid the Italian sample 6% to 4% with the latter haplogroup. The E* would seem a bit low, but this is the north of Italy. Finally K* was found in the Italian sample at 13% (relatively large), while the general Danish group
had 4%.

I think there is a lot of information enbedded here but a higher resolution is needed (e.g., is haplogroup I all I1a in Denmark and I1b in Italy - probably it is more complicated than this).

The authors conclude that there is no basis to conclude that there was any contribution of the Danish Cimbri to the population structure of the region of Italy under consideration. In other words there is no evidence to support the beliefs of some in the region. A study in 2002 came to a similar conclusion in relation to mtDNA.

What is interesting was the 6% J and 6% E in the Cimbri group from Jutland. Are these Neolithic farmers or more recent migrants from Central Europe?

Of course a problem is that no one knows the ratios of R1b1c* to R1b1c9 (S21) and R1b1c10 (S28). The Danish area appears to have spun off some of the latter to Eastern England and South Eastern Norway. If I am correct and there was a solid presence of S28 among the Cimbri from the earliest days of migration likely from the headwaters of the Danube, this would probably have included other groups (the E and J?). When the Danes absorbed Jutland in the 6th Century they likely brought considerable S21 (as well as I1a). The Italian R1b group also probably consists of significant S28 since the Alps were the apparent homeland of the ancient Eastern Celts (at least in the Hallstadt and La Tene eras - Bronze and Iron Age). The only customer from Veneto tested by EA is S28+. This area was the home of many ancient Celtic tribal groups (e.g., Seminones); and later Germanic. It is not necessary to invoke the Cimbri to link up with Celtic - Germanic peoples.

I do hope that we can get these Danish and Italian samples tested for S21 and S28 as it would afford a better understanding of the population structure of these areas.

Actually I would expect from the historical sources that both regions have experienced major population shifts in 2000 years - and from different sources. Hence it is still possible that some of the Cimbri army retreated to the hills of Veneto in 101 BC and over the years became indistinguishable from the surrounding population except via their "Germanic" dialect which perhaps via elite dominance came to be the language of the region (although it could as well have been highly or entirely influenced by the 13th Century immigration of German woodcutters which further muddies the population structure and the matter of the language).

Nothing is ever simple but I have to give credit to the authors for the use of genetics to attempt to clear up a mystery about the origins of this Italian minority group.

David Faux
R1b1c10

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