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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2005-09 > 1125570526


From: <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Fw: DYS 464a, b, c, d, e,
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 11:28:46 +0100
References: <000801c5ae99$7b59f710$70ae5a42@BAYGEN> <op.swennfugpqnhvj@diego>


Ray and List

the three haplotypes match exactly apart from DYS464 so I think there is no
doubt that the three men are descended from the same Lovett ancestor. They
are I1a, Ken could probably deduce a likely region of origin from the full
set of results.
There are two mutations to consider:
- the extra DYS464 copy (probably a doubling of the 12) which must have been
inherited from the common ancestor
- the difference between the one man and the other two for which the most
simple explanation is a jump from 15 to 18 or vice versa.
Both mutations are unusual but not impossible. Without any paper trails or
mutations at other markers it is difficult to triangulate to deduce the
ancestral form of DYS464. On the one hand 12,14,15,16 is a common pattern in
I1a so 12,12,14,15,16 is a more likely original form, on the other hand I
always had the impression that multistep jumps were mostly deletions i.e. 18
to 15 rather than 15 to 18.
Has lab error definitely been ruled out for the sample with the 18?
Unfortunately the extended test for DYS464 is only available for R1bs.
DYF399S1 might tell us more about the doubling mechanism but not the 15/18
gap.
Your best hope is to find and test Lovett cousins of the three men. This
might resolve the triangulation issue. You could also look out for near
matches on the databases which might suggest an ancestral form. Finally you
could test additional markers in the hope of finding one which varies
between the three.

Gareth


----- Original Message -----
From: "David F Reynolds" <>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 4:51 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Fw: DYS 464a, b, c, d, e,


> On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 19:04:26 -0700, Ray Lovett <>
wrote:
>
> >
> > List, three members of our Lovett group has 5 DYS-464's where others
seem
> > to only have only 4. One member of our group has DYS-464a, b, c, d,
e,
> > 12, 12, 14, 16, 18. Two others have DYS-464 a, b, c, d, e, 12, 12,
14,15,
> > 16. We have the same surname but no paper trails. I do not thank this
> > could be a freak condition since we all have a DYS-464 a, b, c, d, e,
and
> > same surname. What do you thank is going on here, could this be a good
> > question for this list?
> > Ray Lovett
>
> Butler's 2003 paper on DYS464 listed values for 679 samples. The most
common number of copies of the marker was four, but there were eight samples
with 3 copies, five samples with 5 copies, seven samples with 6 copies and
one sample with 7 copies listed. So having more than 4 copies of DYS 464 is
uncommon, but certainly not a "freak condition." :)
>
> See:
> www.cstl.nist.gov/div831/strbase/pub_pres/ButlerISFG2003_DYS464.pdf


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