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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-08 > 1091475548


From: "Whit Athey" <>
Subject: RE: [DNA] J2 HG in Scotland
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 15:39:08 -0400
In-Reply-To: <20040802181047.53147.qmail@web52107.mail.yahoo.com>


I guess I'll put my two cents worth in on this. I agree with Ellen that
more evidence is needed before we can abandon the idea that haplogroups J,
G, and E3b came to Europe with the spread of agriculture. I have no doubt
that episodic events in the last 2000 years could have significantly
affected certain local areas, especially in far northwestern Europe where
the gradient of Middle Eastern haplogroups is at its lowest. However, the
overall steady gradient across Europe from southeast to northwest does not
suggest to me that this gradient results from a bunch of comparatively
recent individual invasions. I still believe that most of the evidence
supports the idea that a clear majority of haplogroup G, J, and E3b people
came to Europe between 4000 and 8000 years ago, and that some later events
have added a small layer or two on top of that.

Whit


-----Original Message-----
From: ellen Levy [mailto:]
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 2:11 PM
To:
Subject: [DNA] J2 HG in Scotland

Hi List:

Sorry, there is a real delay in my responses because I
am still on yahoo and have to constantly go back and
read the archives for my messages.

Vet, all I have available in Semino's paper is the
French Basque results rather than results for various
populations within France. That would clearly be more
helpful.

Doug, your question is an interesting one! I do think
haplotype diversity within a single haplogroup is an
important factor - sorry, I know you don't want to
hear that.

I think examining the migration paper of the
haplogroup is extremely important. For instance, R1a1
is found in very high proportions in Russia and
certain populations of the Altai. What is it's spread
out from these regions? Does it slowly taper off as
you move away from the area you believe the haplogroup
(or sub-clad) originated?

Also, I'd like to see archaeological and historical
evidence tied into the arguments more often (sorry,
this may be a reflection of my own archeaology degree,
so I'm biased. But the traditional methods of proving
population movements was through archaeological
methods and this approach, coupled with DNA evidence,
can be quite convincing).

I think your question raises many interesting issues.
We know that J2 originated in Anatolia/Iraq, but what
about the sub-clades. Just look at one of J2's
sub-clades: J2-67* for instance. It's highest
frequency is in Georgia and then parts of Italy.
However, it is much lower in Iraqi & Lebanese samples.
It's not even particularly high in neighboring
Turkey. So where did this originate? Why is it so
high in Georgia and in north-central Italy?

Ellen Coffman


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