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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] J2 HG in Scotland
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 18:12:11 +0000


I'm going to weigh in on this and no doubt earn myself some unfavorable responses.
Mary wrote:
>Thank you, Dr. Faux. I think this answers any and all questions about J2
>haplogroup in Britain, Scotland, and elsewhere in Europe.
>
>Mary+cats
I'm sorry, but I must disagree with this viewpoint. Above all, the part about 'elsewhere in Europe.' Semino's paper shows as clear as day, the geographic patterns formed by J2 haplogroup distribution in Europe. David's theory may have some degree of validity for the British Isles and Scandinavia, areas far removed from the Mediterranean, but parts of France, Switzerland, Austria, the Balkans, and all of Italy and Greece need no explanations of Central Asian infusions. Their J2 populations can be easily seen to radiate directly out of the Middle East.
As far as Britain and Scandinavia, I agree with Ellen Levy, when she questions the idea that J2 came there primarily via Central Asians:
________________________________________
>If Sarmatians were a mixed people: R1a, Q, C, K, etc,
>then why aren't we finding these haplogroups in the
>British population in the same proportions were are
>finding J2? . . .
>It would seem that J2 would have reached Britain with
>the movement of a number of peoples:

>1. First, the movement of the Neolithic farmers
>themselves. . . . some of these
>farmers likely found their way to Britain many
>thousands of years ago . . .
___________________
Archaeologists who have far more in-depth knowledge and training in the study of ancient peoples than any of us possess have provided abundant evidence making it crystal clear that Neolithic farming people did in fact reside in early Britain. There are lots of websites such as those from the BBC with details easily available.
_____________
>2. The movement of continental European peoples
>themselves into Britain. Cindy mentioned the Romans
>in Britain, and they possessed relatively high amounts
>of J2. Most of the sub-clades of J2 found in Italy
>also occur in northern Middle Eastern populations as
>well. In fact, some sub-clades, such as J2-67*, occur
>in their highest frequency Italy (and Turkey). Also,
>let's remember that Britain has a long and complicated
>history with France. In Semino's paper, the French
>Basque have 13% J2. However, again, it seems
>difficult if not impossible to distinguish between
>Turkish J2-67* and Italian J2-67*. Or French Basque
>J2-172* and Turkish J2-172*. So how could you really
>say who brought it to Britain, the farmers or the
>Romans or the Samartian soldiers?
_____________________
Again, the great majority of Roman soldiers were in fact from areas much closer to Rome than to Sarmatia in Central Asia, and the populations of these Mediterranean and Near Eastern areas are known to have a very high percentage of members of J2.
_________________________
>I realize that finding the origin of your DNA with
>historical groups like the Samartians is far more
>romantic than a group of slow-moving farmers out of
>Anatolia. But is it accurate?
_________________________________
Exactly. I have noticed that a good number of people who delve into genetic genealogy have a particular romantic scenario that they wish to confirm, rather than an open-minded acceptance of what is most strongly probable.
As I've mentioned, it might be much more romantic for me to come up with some amazing narrative explaining how my Amish ancestors were crypto-Jews and descendents of the ancient kings of Israel, instead of seeing and accepting the obvious and simple explanation. In fact, I think it would be rather cool to be a descendent of the great Neolithic civilizations of Old Europe, as described by Marija Gimbutas. Moral: there is romance in anything, if you look hard enough!
I am no reductionist, God knows, but I was brought up by a scientist who taught me to use Occam's razor: if there is a simple, elegant, straightforward explanation that works, don't go looking for something much more complicated and jazzy.
Finally let me say that I don't deny that the Sarmatians probably did bring some interesting and exotic Y haplotypes to Britain, such as Q, C, and K. But there is no need to resort to them as an explanation when it comes to J2.
Bonnie Schrack

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