GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-08 > 1091464538


From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Markers YCA II a&b
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 10:35:38 -0600
References: <080220041528.27709.410E5D9D000134AA00006C3D2200748184050B989A0E00@comcast.net>


If YCAIIa,b is so very stable, we have an interesting situation with regard
to our I1a "Hamiltons". We have three clear clusters of haplotypes. The
common ancestor of the three clusters probably goes back to times before or
around the Anglo-Saxon invasion of British Isles, to someplace back on the
continent. One group is 14, 22, 13, 13 at DYS 19, 390, 385a,b; the other
two groups are the more common 14, 22, 13, 14 "Anglo Saxon" motif. But the
three groups have YCAIIa,b values of 19, 21 in one case, 18, 21 in the
second case, and 21, 22 or 21, 21 in the third case. The first two groups
(the large populated groups) have DYS462 = 12, while the latter has DYS462 =
13. So we have here ancient divisions of these Hamilton I1a origins if
YCAIIa,b is so very stable --- or a lucky mutation of this slow mutating
marker.

Gordon Hamilton tabulated the distribution of YCAIIa,b repeat values for I1a
haplogroup only, using the Sorenson database. Dominant 19, 21 had 818
haplotypes. The sum of the other forms had about 87 haplotypes spread over
about 10 different forms. So perhaps YCAIIa,b is not as stable was we have
assumed? With the very slow mutating markers I believe we will see quite
different situations in different haplogroups. If a rarely mutating marker
does mutate in a haplogroup close to some "founder" of a sub-cluster, you
will see major bifurcations of that haplogroup, and any "diversity"
calculation will show artificially high diversity because of bi-modal
population structure.

Ken


----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Markers YCA II a&b


> In the available research literature it is clear that YCAIIa,b is
extremely stable - at least in relation to certain haplogroups.
> R1b is virtually all 19,23. R1a, which has been the subject of three
studies (Passarino et al., 2002; Quintana - Murci et al., 1999; Passarino et
al., 2001), is largely 19,23. What is particularly interesting is that the
2002 study found that YCAIIa,b is bimodal in Norway for R1a. 9 of 17 had
the motif 19,23 which is virtually universal in all regions of the world
studied to date (studies do not include Central or East Asia). However 7/17
Norwegians had a 19,21 motif which is virtually unknown elsewhere.
> The research literature would not support your assertion that this marker
complex is volotile - quite to the contrary.
> David.
>
>
> --
> Dr. David K. Faux
> P.O. Box 192
> Seal Beach, CA 90630
>
>
> www.davidkfaux.org
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> > Most of the cousins in our Renshaw project who tested on 37 markers
match
> > exactly on YCA II a&b. They have values of 19, 23.
> >
> > One man, however, tested as 15, 19. See our webpage at
> > http://www.renshawdna.com/charts.htm and look at the pink block, fourth
line,
> > labeled GAR. You
> > will note that I reversed the values for his results at marker YCA II
a&b so
> > that
> > he is shown as 19, 15, giving him a one-step mutation at YCA II b using
the
> > infinite alleles model. This reversal is legitimate, I believe, as the
order
> > of the results on these two markers is based solely on convention?
> >
> > Because GAR is a fifth cousin to the man labeled CPR, whom he only
matches
> > 34/37 even using the infinite alleles model on YCA II b as above, we
tested GAR
> > at DNA Heritage as well as at FTDNA. You may be interested to know that
with
> > the exception of TAGA H4 and GATA H4, which should have a difference of
1 at
> > the two labs and did, the numbers matched exactly on all markers that
were
> > measured by both labs.
> >
> > We have learned a few things from this exercise:
> >
> > 1. The labs are accurate
> > 2. Fifth cousins can match only 34/37.
> > 3. YCA II a&b is much more volatile than we might suppose. It should be
in
> > red on the FTDNA charts
> >
> > Lest any of you think that perhaps the paper trail is wrong and the two
> > cousins are not really related, note that they both have the odd value
of 20 at
> > marker #570. Comparatively few R1b's have this value, so we use it to
confirm
> > relationship within our project.
> >
> > Comments, please?
> >
> > Eleanor Gordon
> > Renshaw Y-DNA Project Co-Administrator
> >
> >
> > ==============================
> > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration
> > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more.
> > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237
> >
>
>
> ==============================
> You can manage your RootsWeb-Review subscription from
> http://newsletters.rootsweb.com/
>
>


This thread: