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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2004-08 > 1091444801


From: "James V. Elliott" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] J2 HG in Scotland
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 07:07:44 -0400
References: <080220040630.8458.410DDF9F0005EA470000210A2200763704050B989A0E00@comcast.net>


David,

Where can I find a list of "typical" Q haplotypes? As for mistaking G for
I, or for one of its subclades, I believe that occurred during a study on Y
signatures in Northern Ireland, where about 20 percent of the signatures
among men with local "Gaelic" surnames were attributed to G. The authors of
the study later recanted, claiming that they had mistaken I - specifically
I1c - as G. According to the data from the Rootsi paper, I1c seems largely
Northern Germanic. I don't believe the identification of G in Western
Asia - where I1c is unlikely to appear - have been similarly discredited.

I am convinced that the existence of the DYS393=12 (or ht35) variant of R1b
among Anatolians and other peoples from Southwestern Asia has been
well-established, and its presence here - adjacent to Europe - is at least
as feasible as the presence of a haplogroup like Q, which is more commonly
found among the reindeer-herding nomads of Siberia.

I do agree with you that the genetic composition of the Scythians,
Sarmatians, Tocharians and other Central Asian peoples was bound to have
been extremely mixed, due to their propensity to migrate from one place to
another and to absorb (at least by conquest) any weaker group they
encounter - as well as to their location at the interface between Europe and
Asia.

Even if we are able to conduct wholesale SNP-testing on vast numbers of
Central Asians, we would not be able to erase the effect of the Mongol
invasions, or of further northward migrations of Middle Eastern groups into
the Central Asian heartland, since the Roman times or before.

Jim Elliott

----- Original Message -----
From: <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: [DNA] J2 HG in Scotland


> Jim:
>
> It is my understnding that G is "closely" related to Haplogroup I, and in
the past in some studies the two have been confounded. To the best of my
knowledge the only group mistaken for (due to inadequate haplotyping) R1b is
R1a (unlikely) or Q (more likely) which are closely related
phylogenetically.
> David.
> > David,
> >
> > Don't forget haplogroup G, and the eastern variant of R1b characterized
by a
> > DYS393 marker value of 12. Both of these appear among samples from the
> > Caucasus - or at least among those included in the YHRD database and in
> > Cinnioglu's paper on Anatolian haplotypes. R1b is assuredly a minority
> > element among such populations, but it is present nonetheless. Cinnioglu
> > has speculated that the DYS393=12 R1b variant originated with a part of
the
> > Paleolithic R1b population that wintered in the Balkans (rather than the
> > Pyrenees), and later spread into Anatolia and around the shores of the
Black
> > Sea. It is very easy to imagine the Central Asian nomads absorbing
members
> > of this group through conquest or assimilation, and it has probably been
> > part of the Indo-Iranian gene pool for a very long time.
> >
> > Jim Elliott
> >
>
>
> ==============================
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