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From: "Guy Stair Sainty" <>
Subject: Re: von und zu
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:29:42 -0500


>
> > They were Kings 'of' Prussia and not 'at' (zu).
>
> Now, I'm afraid that I'm thoroughly confused. An earlier posting in this
thread
> stated that "von" meant "from" and "zu" meant "of," so that "von"
indicated
> removal *from* the manor/estate/territory of the family (implying an
ennobled
> family that no longer possessed the original manor/estate/territory of its
> ennoblement), while "zu" indicated continued possession *of* the
> manor/estate/territory of the family.
>
> Your message seems, in contrast, to say that "von" indicates continued
> possession *of* the manor/estate/territory of the family and "zu"
indicates
> ennoblement *at* a manor/estate/territory (whatever that might mean).

> So, I'm still at a loss to understand what the difference between "von"
and "zu"
> is. Can someone explain accurately and authoritatively why some royalty
(e.g.,
> kings, dukes, grand dukes) are "von," while others (e.g., Fürsten) are
"zu," and
> at the same time, why most nobles are "von," while others are "von und
zu"?
> What is the significance of "von" and "zu"?

"von" is usually, but not necessarily, a sign of ennoblement. Many 19th
century ennoblements would simply invent a place - Franz Vogel von
Vogelstein, for example (a 19th century German painter) and the introduction
of the "von" did not necessarily (and in later times, seldom) mean a place
or any connection on the part of the family with a place of that name. The
addition of zu would usually mean that they were both of that place and
owners of that place, and when the two are combined this is almost always a
sign of older nobility since it was the ancient nobility who took their
names from the places where they exercised sovereign or seigneurial rights.
Hence the desire on the part of those families who were of such ancient
origin to retain the von und zu as a visible sign of the antiquity and
standing of the family.

GUY STAIR SAINTY

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