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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-02 > 0981326234
From:
Subject: Re: Edward I Patent (1288) for Sale on Ebay
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 22:37:14 GMT
References: <4.2.0.58.20010130200039.00a1a300@mail.tucker-usa.com>, <3A78C0FB.55042644@cwcom.net>, <3a78a75d_1@binarykiller.newsfeeds.com>
Dear Dr. Hines,
I've been following the discussion regarding
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=548075028
with great interest. It has been quite a clinic, and I do value it.
To the best of my knowledge, I received no request for a scan from you,
if it's me you're referring to. I received two requests, one from a
manuscript dealer in Firenze, Italy, and another from a Christopher
Page, both of whom promptly received the scans..
I'll still be happy to send you a scan, though the 150% 320 dpi
presently put up there after the auction opened, is a lot easier to
manage than the 150% 400 dpi scan I would be sending. The actual
document is whiter than the scan (less red) and the ink is more black
brown. My scanner defeated all attempts to get an accurate take of the
vellum.
Apologies if you already know this trick, but if you're using Netscape
(and maybe Explorer--I haven't tried it) a right click on the image will
give you options including direct download of the file, or a copy to the
clipboard of the file's URL, to which you can go directly.
Re the provenance of the document, that portion of it I was around for
is in the item description of the above site, which I intend to leave in
place for some time to come, scan included. I hope it will be read
carefully, for I stand by it, while fully accepting the historical
corrections here. I bought the item in good faith and certainly hope it
was not stolen before that.
It isn't usually eBay that purges the scans, it's the sellers who need
to free up the disk space in the FTP allotment given them by their
service providers, who store the pictures.
Thanks to all for this great thread. If anybody has any questions, I'll
be happy to try to answer them.
Robert Sabaroff
In article <>,
"D. Spencer Hines" <> wrote:
> Indeed.
>
> I requested that he send me a copy of the scan, but he has not, so far
> as I know.
>
> I've certainly not received it.
>
> Possible Forgery?
>
> And yes, its provenance is important.
>
> Was it stolen from the PRO?
>
> Open questions all.
> --
>
> D. Spencer Hines
>
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do
> nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
>
> "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall
one
> by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -- Edmund
> Burke -- Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents [April 23,
> 1770]
>
> "You could not stand five minutes with that man [Burke] beneath a shed
> while it rained, but you must be convinced you had been standing with
> the greatest man you had ever seen." Samuel Johnson [1709-1784],
> _Johnsonian Miscellanies [1897], edited by G.B. Hill, vol. 1, p.290
>
> "On rsiste l'invasion des armes; on ne rsiste pas l'invasion
des
> ides."
>
> Victor Hugo
>
> All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
>
> All original material contained herein is copyright and property of
the
> author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with
an
> attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
> given, in writing.
>
> Vires et Honor
>
> "Renia" <> wrote in message
> news:...
> | Very unusual. Edward I was never King of Scotland or Ireland, though
> not for want
> | of trying.
> |
> | In 1288, the year of the auctioned document, there was a Regency in
> Scotland, due
> | to youth of the queen, Margaret of Norway, and because of doubts as
to
> her
> | suitability to the throne, for Scotland had never before had a
queen.
> Edward I did
> | not involve himself heavily in Scots affairs, until Margaret's
father,
> the King of
> | Norway, approached him in 1289. Happy arrangements were made for her
> to marry
> | Edward I's son, but she died in 1290, and this put Scotland into
> turmoil. As he was
> | a stickler for propriety and had political integrity, I doubt that
he
> ever styled
> | himself "King of Scotland", particularly when there was a young
queen
> on the
> | throne, and when there was an active Regency.
> |
> | In Letters Patent dated 1291, the rival claimants of the Scottish
> Crown, granted
> | the Kingdom to Edward I, pending his judgment on their respective
> rights, wherein
> | they state "Whereas, we of our good will and common assent, and
> without any
> | compulsion, have granted and conceded to the noble Prince, Sir
Edward,
> by the grace
> | of God King of England, that he, as Sovereign Lord of the land of
> Scotland, may
> | hear, try, and determine our claims and demands, that we intend to
> shew forth and
> | aver, to our right in the kingdom of Scotland, and thereupon to
> receive justice
> | before him as Sovereign Lord of the land....."
> |
> | A little later, in 24 Ed I, in the Ragman Rolls, Edward is styled
> "King of England,
> | Lord of Ireland, and Duke of Aquitaine." The highest he could ever
> have styled
> | himself was "Lord of Scotland", but only after 1291.
> |
> | This leads to the question of why his brother-in-law, (the
> predominantly
> | France-based) John of Brittany was in Scotland, and how he came to
be
> captured in
> | or before 1288. There is no mention of this in CP's quite wordy
> biography of John
> | of Brittany, Earl of Richmond, which states that on the last of his
> four seals, in
> | 1275, 1276, he styled himself only Duke of Brittany (if I am reading
> it correctly).
> |
> | Food for thought.
> |
> | Renia
> |
> |
> | Richard Cochran wrote:
> |
> | > I noticed an unusual item on Ebay for sale today. It might have
> some
> | > genealogical interest to some. The item has been scanned and
> translated,
> | > as follows:
> | >
> | > "Edward, by the grace of God king of England, Scotland, Ireland,
> Duke of
> | > Aquitane, to all his vassals and faithful servants, to them the
> present
> | > letter shall
> | > come [...]. Known that as our well-beloved kinsman and faithful
> servant John of
> | > Bretagne, Count of Richmond, on our service was lately taken by
the
> Scots and
> | > is til now detained by them. Therefore with a view to the [...]
of
> loss
> | > to the
> | > Count aforesaid we have prescribed and granted to Thomas of
Hencotes
> and
> | > Richard of Swaffham during his absence to act as attorneys for him
> and his
> | > county, settling or forwarding on behalf of the Count himself, or
> his
> | > County, in
> | > any courts of England. And we have further granted that the
> aforesaid Thomas
> | > or Richard or either of them being present in lieu of the Count
> himself
> | > being able
> | > to appoint as attorney whomever (in plural or singular) they
desire
> in our
> | > court
> | > before us in all such suits and plaints, to prosecute or defend,
> initiate a
> | > forward
> | > [...] in the same year as aforesaid. In witness to such matters we
> have had
> | > these
> | > letters to be prepared to be valid for one year and to be of no
> effect
> | > after the
> | > arrival at the Court in England after [...] his delivery from the
> hands of
> | > the Scots
> | > --- By Me, at Thorp Episcopi, the Eleventh Day of June, in the
> Sixteenth
> | > Year of
> | > My Reign [1288]."
> | >
> | > The item [Ebay # #548075028] is up to over $800, and going soon.
I
> have a
> | > copy of the scan (Ebay generally purges them soon after the sale)
if
> | > anyone's interested.
> | >
> | > Richard Cochran
> | > Big Rapids, MI
> |
> |
>
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