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From: <Michelle.Murphy%>
Subject: Re:Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Llywelyn ap Iorwerth's marriage
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:19 +0100 (BST)


Sandy wrote:

>After checking my Welsh history books, I found this regarding Llywelyn:
>"..........but his grandson, Llywelyn ab Iorweerth, deemed it wise to
>secure a papal dispensation in 1203 for his proposed marriage to the
>daughter of the king of Man." [The Age of Conquest:Wales 1063 - 1415]

And Gee Gee wrote:

>Rhodri m. (1) Gwenllian ferch Yr Argllwydd Rhys (the Lord Rhys), m. (2) in
>1193, N.N (a child) d/o Reginald, king of Man.

Perhaps there is some confusion between the daughter of the Lord of the Isles
and that of the King of Man - perhaps it is the same person? It seems that Gee
Gee and Sandy, through different sources on different people, have come up with
both Llywelyn and his uncle Rhodri being associated with this woman. If Rhodri
married her in 1193 (when a child), and Llywelyn needed a papal dispensation in
1203 for a proposed marriage, this means either:

a) Rhodri's second "marriage" was actually only a betrothal; then according to
the papal records, Llywelyn was seeking to marry a woman formerly betrothed to
his uncle

b) As Gee Gee noted, Rhodri is said by Bartrum's to have died in 1195, leaving
Llywelyn in the position of seeking to marry his uncle's widow, for which he
certainly would need a dispensation. If this girl was under 7 years old in
1193, she would still have been a young child two years later, and still under
18 when Llywelyn sought his dispensation in 1203.

Now, two further possibilities arise: either the dispensation was not granted to
Llywelyn, or as Douglas Richardson has suggested, King John offered his daughter
instead (a much better offer) or even forbade Llywelyn to marry this Rhannult
(sp?). Hence his marriage to Joanna of England took place in 1205, when Joanna
was about 17 or so (most likely).

None of this is implausible at all, particularly given Llywelyn's apparent
desire to follow Church teachings and provide for a succession in the legitimate
line. Before Joanna was offered as a bride, of course Llywelyn would have been
looking around for a noble potential wife. Particularly if he was a widower,
after the death of the Earl of Chester's sister (on which marriage we have, as
yet, no substantiation).

When Dave () gave details on the sisters of Ranulph III de Meschines,
Earl of Chester, from Weis, one of the entries was as follows:

> 2 Amice de Meschines b: 1178
> +Ralph de Mesnilwarin b: Abt. 1080 Chestershire, ENG

I don't know if anyone picked up on this, but the above is CLEARLY wrong.
Amice could not have married a man who was already 98 years old when she was
born.

In this case, if the existence of Amice de Meschines is well substantiated, do
we have another suggested marriage for her? Or was this merely a typo in the
case of Ralph de Mesnilwarin?

If the latter, then were any of Ranulph's sisters widowed young, allowing them
to marry Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (even briefly)?

The answer, according to Weis (and with the exception of Amice above) is no.
The other four sisters of Ranulph had husbands with death dates of 1220, 1219,
1247 and 1257, none of which would allow their wife to be widowed in time to
marry Llywelyn before 1203. Hawise did not die until 1243, Agnes until 1247,
and Maud until 1232/3. No death dates are given for Mabel (but see her
husband's above) or the elusive Amice.

Either Amice's husband is cited incorrectly OR one of these women was betrothed
(not married: unless it was annulled) to Llywelyn before she married her husband
OR there is a further daughter of Hugh de Kevelioc who is not mentioned in Weis,
and who was either betrothed to or married Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (if she married
him, she died before 1203) OR, of course, the report that such a
betrothal/marriage took place is totally false, and Llywelyn's first marital
overtures that we know of took place c. 1203 when he was already 30 years old.

I would be interested to hear further opinions on the above.

regards

Michelle

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