GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-09 > 0904702607


From: William Addams Reitwiesner< >
Subject: Re: Alice le Despenser
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 02:16:47 GMT


(William L. Stone) wrote:

>William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
>
>>"Leslie Hauck" <> wrote:
>>
>>>Can anyone enlighten me on Alice Le Despencer's genealogy ?
>>>This is what I have on on her beginning with son, John Sutton :
>>>
>>>1. John Sutton, Baron of Dudley b. 1380
>>>2. John Sutton, Baron of Dudley b. 1361
>>>3. Alice Le Despencer
>>>6. Phillip Despencer b. abt. 1330
>>>7. unkn.
>>>12. unkn.
>>>
>>>If he is a descendent of Hugh Despencer, Earl of Gloucester and Alianore
>De
>>>Clare, I would need to go no further as I have quite a bit of information
>on
>>>them. I am trying to find out how Philip fits into this line, if indeed
>he
>>>does.I am also very curious about Alice's mother and her line of which I
>>>have no information.
>>
>>I'm not sure where the information about Alice Despencer came from. David
>>Faris, *Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists* [Baltimore:
>>Genealogical, 1996], on p. 90, has this:
>>
>>1. John Sutton, Baron of Dudley b. 1380, d. 1406
>>2. John Sutton, Baron of Dudley b. 1361, d. 1396
>>3. Joan
>>4. John Sutton, Baron of Dudley b. c1338, d. 1369/70
>>5. Katherine de Stafford b. 1348, d. by 1386
>>6. (unknown)
>>7. (unknown)
>>
>>There was a Philip le Despencer at about that time, born in 1342 and died
>>in 1401, for whom see the second edition of Cokayne's *Complete Peerage*,
>>vol. IV, pp. 288-290, but I don't know if he had a daughter named Alice.
>>This Philip was a great-nephew of the Hugh who married Alianore de Clare,
>>as follows:
>>
>>Philip <- Philip <- Philip <- Hugh Despencer m. Isabel Beauchamp -> Hugh
>m.
>>Alianore de Clare
>
>I know of two places where Alice came from.
>1. Weis's Ancestral Roots, 6th Ed., line 81 number 34, says John de Sutton
>IV, (number 2 above) of Dudley Castle, b. 6 Dec. 1361, d. 1395/6, Inq.p.m.
>1401; m. Jane, Inq.p.m. 1409. He cites Complete Peerage IV 479 note e and
>DNB 16:107-9. Then in parenthesis - Alard says he m. (1) Alice prob. Dau.
>of guardian Philip le Despenser. She d. 1392 He m. (2) Jane. Perh. Alice (1
>wife) mother of John V. Close parens. Alard is later identified as George
>Alard: 'The Sutton-Dudleys of England and New England', N.Y.C. 1862,
>Pedigree 'A" The Suttons.
>John de Sutton V (Weis's number 35) (number 1 above) b. 1379, d. 1407, m.
>Constance Blount, d. 1432, dau. of Sir Walter Blount of Barton.

That note in the *Complete Peerage* [IV:479e] is keyed to John (d. 1407,
number 1 above) and states in its entirety:

This John was the s. and h. of John S. (d. 1395/6), s. and h. of
John S. (living 1369), who was s. and h. of John Dudley, of Dudley
Castle, who was sum. to a Council, 25 Feb. 1341/2, which some
peerage writers have accepted as a Parliament. For the status of
this assembly see Preface to vol. i. V.G.

V.G. = Vicary Gibbs, one of the editors of the Complete Peerage.

Not much help on who the wives or mothers were, though.

>2. Burke's Extinct Peerage (not an unimpeachable source), on page 521,
>under 'Sutton - Baron Dudley' muddles things further. He has John de
>Sutton, 2nd Baron (presumably number 4 above). 'The wardship of this
>nobleman, he being in minority at his father's decease, was granted to
>Richard, Earl of Arundel, and sold by him to Sir Philip le Despenser, in
>the 5th Richard II, for 350 marks. He m. twice; by his first wife,
>Margaret, dau. of Roger de Mortimer, Baron Wigmore, he had no issue, but by
>his 2nd wife, Johanna he had two sons, John and Thomas. The 2nd Lord
>Dudley d. 1376 and was s. by his son'
>John de Sutton, 3rd baron, (number 1? above) m. 1st Alice, dau. of Philip
>le Despenser; and 2ndly Constance, dau. of Sir Walter le Blount . . he died
>in 1407.
>Burke has apparently confused father, son and grandson and mixed up their
>wives. Not unusual.
>
>If this Alice existed, might she be a daughter of Sir Philip le Despenser,
>b. 1313, d. 1349 and a sister of Hawise le Despenser (m. Sir Andrew
>Luttrell) for whom see Wayne Wilcox, 'The Ancestry of Catherine Hamby'
>NEHGR 145 (July 1991) at p. 268. This is only a guess based on chronology -
>I have no evidence whatsoever.
>
>Now, I realize I have only muddied the waters further, but at least we now
>know how Alice got into this line. Anyone want to try to sort this out? I
>wish I could say I hope this helps.

I took a look at Paget's Baronage, but he doesn't trace the Suttons of
Dudley under either Sutton or Dudley. He does treat this Despencer branch
as family 183, "Despencer of Goxhill", but provides no daughters of Philip
(-1313) m. Margaret Goushill, their son Philip (1313-1349) m. Joan Cobham,
their son Philip (1342-1401) m. Elizabeth, or their son Philip (1365-1424)
m. Elizabeth Tiptoft, other than the Hawise (dau. of Philip d. 1349) who
married Andrew Luttrell, and the Margaret (dau. of Philip d. 1424) who
married secondly Roger Wentworth.

William Addams Reitwiesner


"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."

This thread: