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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-06 > 0896845284


From: Nathaniel Taylor< >
Subject: Re: counts of Toulouse
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:41:24 -0500


Cristopher Nash wrote:

>Nat wrote:
>
>>olga grlic wrote:
>>
>>>Who were the husbands and children of Isabelle, sister of Raymond of St.
>>>Giles (d. 1105) and William [IV] of Toulouse...
>>
>>... no known Isabel [Elisabeth] in any nearby
>>generations of this family in sources I have to hand.
>
>I suppose there's a small chance that whispers of an 'Isabelle' as a sister
>of Raimon IV and Guilhem IV (Olga Garolic's Raymond [of St Gilles] and
>William ?VIII?) might arise from a confusion associating the children of
>Pons, comte of Toulouse and Almodis de la Marche with the names of two of
>the wives of the next of Almodis' husbands, Ramon Berenguer I of Barcelona
>(d. 1076). Viz. (wife 1) 'Elisabet [de Barcelone]' and (wife 4) another
>'Elisabet' - with either or both of these conceivably of an age close
>enough to that of Raymond and Guilhem to be thought a sister....
> (Cf. Martin Aurell, _Les Noces du Comte: Mariage et Pouvoir en
> Catalogne (753-1213)_ [1995; e.g. fig. 18, p. 258].)
>A terrible stretch, though not beyond the acrobatic virtuosity of
>genealogists...

Interesting: I hadn't thought to look at half-sisters & step-sisters; but
I've read lots on Barcelona, and never a peep about any Isabels as
daughters of Ramon Berenguer I, so I'd be surprised if that's what was
encompassed in the original question. Ramon Berenguer I's will, which
I've scrutinized in all its extant manuscripts [don't ask why], doesn't
name any such daughter. I also looked quickly at sisters-in-law for the
Toulouse brothers and didn't see any likely Isabels. Back to Toulouse: I
just remembered that other recent book, Jacques-Rene Magne and Jean-Robert
Dizel, _Les comtes de Toulouse et leurs descendants les Toulouse-Lautrec:
etude historique et genealogique IXe-XXe siecles_ (Paris: Editions
Christian, 1992). I don't have it handy, but it's probably worth checking
for someone who wants to smoke out any other possible little-known
daughters. Be warned: if someone's not found in any of these sources
we've mentioned, but if you see her in some database or other, she's
probably bogus.

Nat Taylor

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