GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <>
Subject: Re: Beauchamps of Somerset and Worcestershire
Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 00:24:05 +0100

In message <>
"Todd A. Farmerie" <> wrote:

> GURI ADEMI wrote:
> >
> > Sanders says that it's unlikely that a connection existed
> > between the de Beauchamps of the honour of Hatch
> > Beauchamp, Somerset and those of Salwarpe,
> > Worcestershire (eventual Earls of Warwick). A Robert de
> > Beauchamp appears as the first holder Beauchamp of the
> > Somerset honour in the 1090's. His date of death is
> > unknown. A Walter de Beauchamp (d. 1130) appears as
> > the first Beauchamp of the honour of Salwarpe.
> >
> > Sander's argument is that no similarity exists between the
> > heraldry of the two, with Somerset having vair, argent and
> > azure, and Warwick having gules, a fess between six
> > crosses crosslet, or.
> >
> > Is Sanders correct? My rudimentary knowledge of Norman
> > surnames would seem to support Sanders since it would be
> > unlikely that two branches of the same family would have
> > both used the same surname for more than a generation or
> > two after the post-conquest period. The surname would
> > have gone to the elder branch and the younger would have
> > adopted a different one (see, e.g., the Tosnys and Staffords,
> > Beaumonts and de Newburghs, etc.). On the other hand, did
> > the Salwarpe Beauchamps bring with them to Warwick their
> > own coat of arms (that described by Sanders) or did they
> > adopt the coat of arms of the existing heraldry of the
> > Earldom they married into? If the latter, then Sanders
> > argument would seem less conclusive.
>
> This is sort of looking at the question from the wrong direction. What
> you should be asking is not "How good is the evidence for them being
> unrelated?" but instead "What evidence is there that they are related?"
> and the answer to the latter is that there isn't any that I know of.
> Yes, families sometimes changed surnames (although there was not a
> defined pattern of surname inheritance like you describe) and yes,
> sometimes they adopted different arms, but it takes direct evidence to
> conclude there was a relationship.
>
> FWIW, the Newburghs (earlier Earls of Warwick) used a variant of the
> blue and gold chequey coat of the Beaumont/Warenne group, and this is
> not the coat that was later associated with the Beauchamp Warwicks.
>
> taf

FWIW, some research done by the College of Arms at the turn of the
century indeed produced the Beauchamp Warwick arms as above, the
Newburghs as "Chequy or and azure, a chevron ermine" and the the
Newburgh Warwaick arms as "Lozengy or and azure, a bordure gules". And
even more FWIW the Nevill Warwick (Kingmaker) had "Gules, a saltire
argent".

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe
South Farm:
A logical entity with a real counterpart but no address bar this.

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• Re: Beauchamps of Somerset and Worcestershire by Tim Powys-Lybbe <>