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From: Todd A. Farmerie< >
Subject: Re: William Fiennes, "Sire de Fiennes et de Tingry"
Date: 3 Feb 1998 12:18:12 -0800


(Leo van de Pas) wrote:

> Enguerrand de Fiennes, Seigneur de Fiennes, Lord of Wendover
> had amongst others, two sons, the younger is William (Guillaume II)
> de Fiennes, Lord of Wendover, who died in 1302 and married (not
> in this order) Blanche de Brienne.
> The other son is Sir Giles de Fiennes (died 1293) and his son
> is John de Fienes(1331) (I seem to have spellings with one n and 2 ns
> in the middle)
> John who died in 1331, is the father of Sir John de Fiennes (died 1351)
> and he is the father of William de Fiennes (died 1359) spouse of
> Joan de Say.

I hesitate to mention this, but the English actor of recent notoriety
shares this lineage.

> Question 1 :
>
> 1.William (Guillaume II) de Fiennes, Lord of Wendover
> died 11 July 1302
>
> 2.Enguerrand de Fiennes, Seigneur de Fiennes, Lord of Wendover
> married
> 3.NN de Conde (with accent on e)
>
> 4.Guillaume I de Fienes, died 1240
> 5.Agnes de Dammartin

This has been questioned on chronological grounds. From his age,
Enguerrand would appear to have been son of William I by an earlier
wife. (This amendment of the pedigree flies in the face of the
favoritism shown the family by Eleanor of Castile, which had been
attributed to their relationship through the Dammartins.)

>
> 8,Ingelram I de Fienes, died circa 1207
> 9.Sibyl de Tingrie, died after 1217
>
> 10.Alberic II, Comte de Dammartin, died 20 September 1200
> 11.Mahaut (Mabilie) de Clermont, died after October 1200
>
>
> 18.Pharamuse de Boulogne

He is descended from the first Crusader ruler of Jerusalem.

> 20.Alberic I, Comte de Dammartin-en-Goele, died after 1181
> 21.Clemence de Dammartin
>
> 22.Renaud, Comte de Clermont-en-Beauvaisis, died before 1162
> 23.Clemence de Bar, died after 20 January 1183

Here we have a problem with the Dammartins. Clemence de Dammartin IS
Clemence de Bar, and could not be both mother and mother-in-law of
Alberic II. Clemence inherited her title as widow of Lancelin, the last
of the senior male line of Dammartin, descended from Manasses, a scion
of the Ramerupt Hilduins. She later married Renaud de Clermont, but
there is no evidence of a connection with Alberic I. There are two
conflicting reconstructions of the Dammartin pedigree at this point.
The one which I thought had been accepted had Alberic I son of Alberic
de Mello by the aunt of the last of the senior line. However, a recent
article on the family recapitulates a descent suggested (more
speculated) by Evans in the 40s, through an English branch of the
family, with Alberic son of a Eudes, and on in the male line to
Manasses. It is not clear if this is done in preference to, or in
ignorance of the Mello descent (Evans later set aside the English
descent in favor of the Mello one). As to the mother of Alberic II,
Stuart shows her as a late English wife of Alberic I (a Jane Basset) but
this is not possible for chronological reasons. There are (as far as I
know) no other suggestions.

I posted a summary of the Mello version in February, (with an addition
by Stewart Baldwin providing the source which first presented this
Mello) under the thread name "Dammartin / Basset marriage".

ta

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