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From: William Addams Reitwiesner <>
Subject: Re: ANCESTRY OF COUNT ROBERT "THE STRONG"
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 11:34:16 GMT


Matman <> wrote:

>
>Dick Bishop wrote:
>>
>> "Royalty for Commoners" Revised Second Edition, by R. W. Stuart,
>> line 169 shows the ancestry for Count Robert back to Charibert
>> (d. after 636) married to Wulfgurd of Paris. How accurate is the
>> information contained in line 169? Or, is it safe to use?
>>
>> Comments will be appreciated.
>>
>> Dick
>
>No contemporary source ever names Robert's father. Richer of Reims
>in the 11th (?) century says his father's name was Witichin. But
>since the 19th century genealogists and historians have
>successively created an ancestry for him, and made him the
>scion of a long line of counts etc, generally called Robert.
>This is not to say these people didn't exist, just that
>Robert's parentage can only be supposed.
>
>In a way this is quite ironic, as when Hugo Capet became king
>of France at the end of the tenth century, his ancestor Robert
>the Strong, was seen as an example of a humbler type of man
>who had by his prowess in fighting the Vikings, risen to
>the ranks of the nobility (this is from the work of Aimoin
>of Fleury c.990, I think). But this ancient descent would
>have us believe he was of a noble family of great lignage.
>
>This is quite significant, as historians, on the strength
>of these descents, deny that there was any 'new nobility'
>arising out of the turmoil of the 9th and 10th centuries.
>(BTW: I can't remember the title, but I found this discussion
>in the American Historical Review 1981)
>
>Also I'm wary of unbroken male line descents. In noble families
>they tend to be the exception rather than the rule in this period.

Then you'll love Joseph et Martine Denoyelle-Lelong, *Les origines
franco-saxonnes des Capetiens* [Lille, 1994], where Robert the Strong's
patrilineal line is traced back to Brimir Aurgelmer (born 275 BC) through
Odin (born 180 BC in Tartarie, and conquered Northern Europe), and Wotan
(born 305/310 AD, King of the Saxons). Others sharing this patrilineal
line are the Kings of Kent and Essex, the Billungers, the Saxon Emperors
(such as Henry, d. 936), and the Counts of Waldeck. The authors are honest
enough to mark each of the speculative connections with a "?" -- guess how
many connections in the book do *not* have the question mark! By the way,
the front cover has portraits of Robert the Strong, his dad Witichin, grand-
dad Rotbert, and great-granddad Amalwin. Kinda generic looking, clean-
shaven except for their mustaches.

William Addams Reitwiesner


"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."

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