GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

From: Rafal Heydel-Mankoo <>
Subject: Re: SEIZE QUARTIERS
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 03:58:33 -0400

Patrick Cracroft-Brennan wrote:
>
> In article <>, "D. Spencer Hines"
> <> writes
> >
> >Camilla von Massenbach wrote:
> >>
> >> D. Spencer Hines wrote:
> >>
> >> Mega snip
> >>
> >> > So be it. No post of the Edward of Warwick, "six-generation"
> >> > Ahnenreihe.
> >>
> >> I haven't seen Paget either. Please do post the ahnenreihe.
> >>
> >> Best wishes
> >>
> >> Camilla
> >>
> >> --
> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Camilla Gemmingen von Massenbach
> >> Email:
> >> URL: http://www.links.org
> >
> >OK. I shall, after a bit more polishing. Women do have better instincts
> >in these things.
> >
> >These "seize quartiers" ['sixteen quarters', I gather, would be the
> >English translation] would seem to reflect the graphical picture that
> >many of us see on our monitors with these genealogical software programs
> >we use [Family Origins 5.0, in my case] i.e., a person to the far left
> >on the screen "in the root position"----and the Parents, Grandparents,
> >Great-Grandparents and Great-Great-Grandparents portrayed to the
> >right----culminating in the 16 Great-Great-Grandparents, to the far
> >right.
> >
> >I suppose, at some point, in noble families---one was expected to show
> >"sixteen quarters of nobility" to be considered a member of the club?
> >Is this still the case today in some venues? If so, where----and what
> >are the rules of play---in France and Britain and Germany---to pick
> >three examples? It would also be worthwhile to know when this
> >crititerion was established and by whom.
>
> Some of the ancient orders of chivalry (in particular the Order of
> Malta) still requires candidates for admission to be able to prove a
> greater or lesser number of noble ancestors.
>
> Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
> Tel & Fax: +44 171 794 3833
> E-mail:

Membership in the Order of the Knights Hospitaller (Knights of Malta)is
divided into three broad categories, each with subdivisions. The first
consists of the "professed" Knights of Justice and Knights of Obedience
who can prove the nobility of their four grandparents for two centuries
(a la SEIZE QUARTIERS) and have taken either "simple" of "solemn"
religious vows including that of celibacy; the second are the Knights of
Honour and Devotion, who must prove the same nobility but are not
"professed"; the third category differs in nobiliary and other
qualifications. Whilst it is primarily an aristocratic association no
proof of ancient nobility is required to belong to the lower grades of
Knights of Magistral Grace, etc.

Interestingly, the Irish Association does not require its members to be
as kosher as their continental brethren. In Ireland all that is required
is heraldic proof of the use of a coat-of-arms for 300 years from father
to son in a direct Catholic line. This must be confirmed by the Chief
Herald of the Genealogical Office at the Castle in Dublin. Knights of
Grace and Devotion must have proof of the use of a coat-of-arms for 100
years.
My great-uncle, a Knight of Honour and Devotion in the Polish
Association, once explained to me the reason for this Irish anomaly.
From what I can remember, a powerful Irish peer of the eighteenth or
nineteenth century was unable to prove that all the ancestors in his
seize quartiers were noble. I believe one was, horror of horrors, a Jew.
To get around this awkward situation he managed to force the Irish
Bailiff, or President, to change the requirements to suit his situation.

By Royal Charter in 1888, Queen Victoria converted the revived grand
priory of England into a British order of Chivalry bearing the prefix
"most venerable". The Most Venerable Order of St. John is predominantly
Protestant, although all Christians are welcome. The Venerable Order,
which has priories in Canada, Australia and the other grand old
dominions, does not require proof of nobility for membership. An
American Society of the Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of St. John
of Jerusalem was set upin the U.S. in 1960.

All the best,

Rafal Heydel-Mankoo (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada)


Researching my maternal lineage:
Heydel (the Barons), Jablonowski (the Princes), Dziedyszycki (the
Counts), Mineyko (herb GOZDAWA), Stecki (the Counts), Skarbek (the
Counts), Ilinski (the Counts).

This thread:

• Re: SEIZE QUARTIERS by Rafal Heydel-Mankoo <>