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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1997-04 > 0859910688


From: Rafal Prinke <>
Subject: Re: Prince or Duke?
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 18:04:48 +0200


"D. Spencer Hines" <> wrote:

>>Yes - but a dictionary definition of usage is something different
>>than trying to find the historically correct term.
>
>[Whoa! You are trying to shift the terms of the discussion. This started as
>a question as to the translation of the term " Velikij Knyaz"----now you
>are trying to shift it to a totally different subject, the historically
>correct term within a particular culture and time period----not the same

Why did I start that!!! :-) OK. To arms!

I am not shifting the discussion but finding the context which may
provide some arguments for or against the initial statement.

>>"Yes, I concur. "Great Prince" is the most literal translation of the
>>Russian "VELIKIJ KNYAZ" [transliterated into the Latin alphabet, of
>>course]"---no more, no less.] D. Spencer Hines

>[Actually, dictionaries are quite useful------we codify the language with
>dictionaries. I wish more people would consult them, *frequently.*

So when you consult an English-Russian dictionary, you'll find this:

ENGLISH RUSSIAN
prince kniaz'
duke kniaz'

There is no problem translating from left to right, but there is
a major problem doing that the other way. Saying that "prince" is
a better translation than "duke" requires additional arguments and
I tried to look for them in the origins of these titles. Otherwise
the only conclusion must be that both translations are equally correct
and none of them could be called "better".

>[Again, the issue is not what title you find in "Lines of Succession" in a
>20th Century source but what the literal translation of the words "Velikij
>Knyaz" into English would be.

"Literal translation" is the second name of "worst translation".
And in our case it is even impossible [vide supra].

>>Ha! Why did you use that euphemism for Lorenzo? :-) He was
>>the _ruler_ of Florence, indeed, but isn't he more commonly
>>refered to as a _duke_ of Florence?
>
>[To Machiavelli, he was "The Principal Ruler"----["Il principe"] it is
>hardly a euphemism, by any stretch of the imagination----or the Italian or

Did someone mention shifting the terms of the discussion? :-)

>>Then we should talk about a "principality of Kiev" or "of Lithuania"
>>- and we surely don't.
>
>[Actually, we *do* see references to the Principality of Kiev----read
>Florinsky.

Shifting again... One can see (hear, read) many things, which does
not mean they are all acceptable. If Florinsky (and I do not know his
work) is an infallible authority for you, then I understand your
preference for "prince" - but this is an act of _faith_ rather than
_reason_.

Well, the time has come to finish off the discussion with one
mightly blow. I should have done it earlier but could not resist
the pleasure of word-play :-)

The two titles we are talking about are later renderings of
the original Latin _princeps_ and _dux_ which were used
in medieval documents. So the question really amounts to:
by which of these terms were the Ruthenian and Lithuanian rulers called
in original documents? As I have no medieval texts at hand,
here is the official title of the king of Poland
after the Union with Lithuania and conquest of part of the Kievian
Ruthenia:

Dei Gratia Rex Poloniae, Magnus Dux Lithuaniae, Russiae, Prussiae,
Masoviae, Samogitiae, Kiioviae, Volhijniae, Podlachiae, Podoliae,
Livoniae, Smolensciae, Severiae, Czerniechoviae

Certainly you will not argue that it is better to translate "dux"
as "prince" rather than "duke"? :-)

>[We previously talked about Poniatowski, the great Pole and lover of
>Catherine the Great----as well as the Scots----Gordons. Please tell us more
>about some of the interesting Polish medieval and royal genealogical
>issues-----and why you find them interesting and important. I think that
>would be fascinating----and you are the best one to do it]

Thank you for kind words but your request is really too general.
If you have a specific question and I can answer it, I will do
that with pleasure. But giving a lecture on "Polish medieval
genealogy".... I wouldn't know where to start. Sigrid the Proud
has already been discussed :-)

>Cheers, Your Friend [Vash Druk]-----Diana Spencer

"Oooo, Diana..." - it should be "drug" and it is Russian not Polish.
In Polish it would be "twoj przyjaciel" (with "o-accute").

>["Put not your trust in princes..."---Rafal]
>Holy Bible, King James Version [1611] Psalm 146, Verse III

"Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies"
ibidem, 1 Tim. I,5

Best regards,

Rafal

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