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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1996-08 > 0838907873


From: Jim Stevens <>
Subject: Re. Was Guy of Spoleto a Carolingian ?
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 08:57:53 -0500


In article <4to39l$>, tomBodley wrote:

> In article <4tafb6$>, says...
> >
> >
> > Does anyone have information about the correct lineage of
> >Guy or Guido (II) of Spoleto, HRE from 891 to 894. Several authors
> >list him as a son of Guy I who was married to Adelaide, daughter of
> >Pepin of Italy, son of Charlemagne. But William Langer lists him
> >as a descendant of Louis the Pious and others leave him out of the
> >Carolingian family altogether. Any help in sorting this out would
> >be greatly appreciated...
> >
> >- Jim Roberts
>
> Guy was not a carolingian in the male line. Generally he is
> seen as the son of Guy I of Spoleto (842-58), though the
> Annals of Fulda 888 call him son of Lambert. Some older secondary
> works sometimes have his father Guy I as marrying a daughter
> of Emperor Lothar I or Louis the Pious, but I don't think this
> link appears in any scholarly works (eg Werner Die Nachkommen
> des Karl der GroB..). The Adelaide link I have not heard of.
> Most of the secondary works on the Widonids (or Guideschi
> in Italian historiography) are German (Hofmeister 1907,
> Hlawitschka 1983) or Italian. However some historians
> (Tellenbach..) do believe some link with the Carolingians
> existed. I havn't yet seen how this is suggested: maybe
> this link with adelaide is it.
>
> tom

For what it's worth (Many would say not much), Stuart in "Royalty For
Commoners" has Guy as a Carolingian - but NOT a descendant of Charlemagne.
Maybe more technically he might be called an Arnulfing.

1. St. Arnulf, Mayor of the Palace (582-640) and an ancestor of
Charlemagne m. Doda of Saxony (Stuart RFC - 53:45)

2. St. Clodule, Bishop of Metz (Stuart RFC - 53:45)

3. Kunza m.Guerin [or Warinus] Count of Poitiers (d. 677) (Stuart RFC -
330:45)

4. Liutwin, Count & Bishop of Treves (Stuart RFC - 330:44)

5. Count Gui (d. aft 722) (Stuart RFC - 330:43)

6. Lambert, Count of Hornbach (d. abt 783) (Stuart RFC - 330:42)

7. Guido, a count on the Breton March (d. 814) (Stuart RFC - 265:43)

8. Lambert I, Count of Nantes Per Stuart's "Royalty For Commoners"
(265:42), he married N.N., perhaps one of the four Daughters of PEPIN,
KING OF ITALY, viz. Athalia, Gundrada, Bertha, or Theodora.
[i.e. another POSSIBLE Carolingian connection]

9. Guido I, Mqs of Spoleto (d. abt 858). m. Itta, dau of Duke Sico.
(Stuart RFC - 265:41). Guido was marquis of Spoleto from 842 to 858.
There was civil war in the neighboring duchy of Benevento from 839 to 849.
Chris Wickham, in "Early Medieval Italy" makes passing mention that KING
LOUIS II OF ITALY and Guy I of Spoleto ended that civil war by dividing
Benevento between them. The rulers of Spoleto and Benevento, though
technically subservient to the king of Italy were, in actual fact, soverign
princes.

10. Guido, King of Italy (d.894) m. Angiltrude &/or perhaps Judith (Itta)
(Stuart RFC - 265:40). The following is a synopsis from Chris Wickham's
"Early Medieval Italy" : With the death of CARLOMAN, the last legitimate
male descendant of CHARLEMAGNE in 879, the rivalry for the kingship of
Italy became intense. BERENGER I, supported by the German faction, at
first had the upper hand. After 887 the French faction chose Guido as
their candidate. In 883, as Duke of Spoleto, he had revolted against
CHARLES THE FAT. Guido was a man of high ambition. He had hopes of
claiming the kingship of France and Lorraine in 887. Returning to Italy
with a Franco-Burgundian following, he was elected King of Italy in 889
over the then reigning BERENGER. He was able to keep BERENGER restrained
within the confines of his base of support in the northeast of Italy. In
891, Guido took the title of Emporer. He was the first non- Carolingian to
do so. His intentions were to be an active ruler, but they were pretty
much thwarted by by the soon-to-be emporer ARNULF, the illigitimate son of
CARLOMAN, who was called into Italy from Germany by BERENGER to help him
regain the throne. Guido died in 895, leaving his son, LAMBERT, who had
been co-reigning with him since 891, to complete the struggle against
BERENGER. LAMBERT died shortly thereafter in 898, leaving the door open
for BERENGER to regain the throne.

Today is the first day of the rest of your life ! () Jim

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