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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1996-06 > 0833895281


From: PYRO ACROBAT <>
Subject: Re: Wives of ARNOLD Royalty
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:34:41 +0100
In-Reply-To: <31AE1075.100F@cisco.com>


> the only acknowledged native overlord of Wales as an entity was
> Llewelyn-ap-Gruffydd (and later nominally his son David).......

To the best of my knowledge (and I have researched the issue), Llywelyn
ap Gruffydd did not have a son called David. He married Eleanor de
Montfort who died in childbirth of their only daughter, Gwenllian
(1282-1337). It is said that he had a daughter (who would have to be
illegitimate) called Cathryn, from whom Owain Glyn Dwr and the Tudor
family claimed descent. I have also read unconfirmed reports of a bastard
son called Maredudd who was incarcerated in the Tower of London. However,
it seems clear that Llywelyn had no son, for if he did the issue of his
marriage would not have been so urgent, since illegitimate sons held the
same rights in Wales as legitimate ones, at least until Davydd ap
Llywelyn Fawr superseded his brother Gruffydd.

The Davydd who was a titular Prince of Wales after Llywelyn ap Gruffydd's
death in late 1282 was, of course, his younger BROTHER Davydd ap
Gruffydd, who was hung, drawn and quartered in 1283 for treason against
King Edward I of England. As far as I can gather, all of Davydd's
daughters were sent into convents, and both of his sons (Owain and
Llywelyn) were incarcerated in Bristol castle until they died, without
descendants.

Michelle

(as a native Welsh person, I would be fascinated to hear any
contradictions to the above account with any firm historical basis. The
above is the nearest to the truth that I can find, and is full of ifs and
maybes. the rights of illegitimate children make the whole issue
complicated.)

******************************************************************************
Michelle Murphy, Trinity College Dublin, Ireland. Mail:
Web Page http://www3.tcd.ie:80/~mmurphy| "Best as a wishing star, I saw
** ** | you better far away,
** | And I felt obligation, and
Of the choice of two evils, I pick | heard your voice again"
the one I've never tried before | - "Tainted Obligation"
| Michael Stipe+Community Trolls
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