GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

From: Stewart Baldwin <>
Subject: Re: Yaroslav I & Ingegerda
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 23:44:40 GMT

(Russell Martin) wrote:

>Jared Olar () wrote:

>: The ruling family of Kiev was viking in
>: origin, and there was a close affinity between the Russian lands and the
>: Scandinavian territories at that time. Scandinavian traders were active
>: all over Europe, and traveled between Sweden and Constantinople via the
>: rivers of Russia and the Ukraine.

>The genealogical lines between the purported founder of the first
>"Russian" dynasty (one really ought to say Kievan *Rusian*) are not so
>clear as this comments might suggest. First, while the Primary Chronicle
>(Povest' vremennykh let) certainly does report that Riurik and his
>kinsmen were invited by the Slavs of the Lake Ladoga and Novgorod region
>to "come rule over us," it must be remembered that this source is very
>late (early 12th cent.), and contradicted by other Scandinavian
>sources. Second, our Riurik of the Primary Chronicles was almost certainly
>R/orik (Hraerekr) of Jutland.

This is extremely unlikely. Other than the facts that they had the
same name, and lived about the same time, there is no significant
evidence to support the claim that Riurik was the same person as the
Viking Rorik who appears in the Frankish annals. Rorik appeared in
the Frankish annals as late as 873 (with no mention of a Russian
connection), well after Riurik is stated to have arrived in the east.

>Moreover, it seems fairly clear to all not
>trying to validate national myths that Riurik/R/orik was not the
>progenitor of the dynasty which bears his name.

Talking about trying to validate national myths, the claim that Riurik
was not the ancestor of the dynasty named after him was a part of the
official dogma of the former Soviet Union, which wanted to deny any
significant non-Slavic element in the formation of the Russian state.

>He was not, that is, the
>father or kinsman of (St.) Igor, that first historical "Riurikid."

The main argument against Riurik being the father of Igor is a
chronological one, i.e., the generation length is way too long. I
agree that Riurik was _probably_ not the father of Igor, but the
possibility still exists. It is not common for a man in his seventies
to have a child, but it does happen from time to time. It would be
interesting to know on what evidence you base your assertion that
Riurik was not even a kinsman of Igor. (Supporting such a definitive
claim that two people were not related would seem to require much more
evidence than the meager amount available.)

>One
>interesting speculation, my Omel'ian Pritsak, is that the "Riurikids"
>were actually descended from Khazar kings, or kagans.

Interesting, but extremely far-fetched. The national religion of the
Khazars was Judaism. How do the descendants of a Jewish dynasty end
up with such Scandinavian names as Riurik (Rorik), Oleg (Helgi), Olga
(Helga), and Igor (Ingvar)?

(snip)

Stewart Baldwin

This thread:

• Re: Yaroslav I & Ingegerda by Stewart Baldwin <>