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From: Jim Stevens <>
Subject: Re: Princes of Orange/Toulouse
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 04:20:00 EST


>Alan B. Wilson
> recently responded in this thread :
(snip)
>4. Raimond II of Toulouse & Albi Count (Circa 0865 - 0923/0924)
> & Guidinilde of Urgel (Circa 0870 - After 0923)
>5. Raimond III Pons of Toulouse & Albi Count (Circa 0895 - Circa 0950)
> & Gersende of Gascony (Circa 0895 - )
>6. William III "Taillefer" of Toulouse Count (0947 - Oct 1037)
> & Emme de Provence (Circa 0965 - )
>7. Pons II of Toulouse, Albi & Dijon Count (0990 - 1060)
> & Almodis de la Marche (Circa 0990 - 17 Nov 1075)
>8. William IV of Toulouse Count (1040 - 1093)
> & Emma de Mortaigne (Circa 1058 - )
>
>References:
> Europaische Stammtafeln: iii, 763 (gen. 1-8).
> Weis, Ancestral Roots: 185 (gen. 6-8).
> Stuart, Royalty for Commoners: 326 (gen. 1-6), 374 (gen. 6-8).
> Moriarty, The Plantagenet Ancestry: 41-42 (gen. 1-8).

There appears to be some confusion for generation #6 and #7 in the lines
of the Counts of Toulouse and the Counts of Provence.
According to "Dictionary of Royal Lineage", the name of Raimond III's
(refered to as Raymond Pons III) wife was GARSINDE, daughter of ODON
VICOMTE OF NARBONNE. This source states that they had three sons : WILLIAM
III TAILLIFER (who succeeded his father as Count of Toulouse in 950 at the
age of three and ruled for 87 years until his death in 1037), Pons, and
Raymond.
"Colonial and Revolutionary Lineages in America" (V1, pp 550-551) gives
Raimond III's wife as BERTHA, the daughter of BOSON, MARQUIS OF TUSCANY,
and says they were the parents of WILLIAM, COUNT OF ARLES (i.e. COUNT OF
PROVENCE). WILLIAM, this source states, married ADELE (aka BLANCHE),
daughter of GEOFFREY I, COUNT OF ANJOU. They were the parents of
CONSTANCE, who married KING ROBERT II OF FRANCE.
Vol 2 of "Histoire de France . . ." (written in French) agrees with
"Colonial and Revolutionary Lineages in America" in making BERTHE the wife
Raimond III, but places "Pons II Count of Toulouse" as a generation between
Raimond III and WILLIAM III. I think this is probably the same Pons that
is given as William's younger brother in the "Dictionary of Royal Lineage"
The LDS AF shows GARSINDE as Raimond's wife.

Have "the scholars" sifted through all this and determined that Weis &
Stuart's genealogies are indeed correct, or is there still support for any
of these alternate genealogies ?

One more specific question - Is there any evidence that Raimond III
married twice - To Garsinde of Albi or Narbonne and to Berthe of Tuscany ?

The lines of the Counts of Toulouse and their collateral relationships
have given me more headsaches than any other I've dealt with personally.
I've a lot more questions than I've posed here, but to go on would make
this post too long and too complex. In just a minute, I'll compose another
posting that picks up with where this one leaves off.

Today is the first day of the rest of your life ! () Jim

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