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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1995-12 > 0817982400-01


From: Jim Stevens <>
Subject: Re: Princes of Orange/Toulouse
Date: Sun, 3 Dec 1995 04:20:00 EST


>Alan B. Wilson
> recently posted to this thread :

(snip)

>4. Raimond II of Toulouse & Albi Count (Circa 0865 - 0923/0924)
> & Guidinilde of Urgel (Circa 0870 - After 0923)
>5. Raimond III Pons of Toulouse & Albi Count (Circa 0895 - Circa 0950)
> & Gersende of Gascony (Circa 0895 - )
>6. William III "Taillefer" of Toulouse Count (0947 - Oct 1037)
> & Emme de Provence (Circa 0965 - )
>7. Pons II of Toulouse, Albi & Dijon Count (0990 - 1060)
> & Almodis de la Marche (Circa 0990 - 17 Nov 1075)
>8. William IV of Toulouse Count (1040 - 1093)
> & Emma de Mortaigne (Circa 1058 - )
>
>References:
> Europaische Stammtafeln: iii, 763 (gen. 1-8).
> Weis, Ancestral Roots: 185 (gen. 6-8).
> Stuart, Royalty for Commoners: 326 (gen. 1-6), 374 (gen. 6-8).
> Moriarty, The Plantagenet Ancestry: 41-42 (gen. 1-8).

(snip)

This posting is concerning the relationship of the Counts of Toulouse,
the Counts of Arles or Provence, and King Robert II of France. As a
starting point consider CONSTANCE, the wife of KING ROBERT II.

"Colonial and Revolutionary Lineages in America" (V1, pp 550-551) gives
Raimond III's wife as BERTHA, the daughter of BOSON, MARQUIS OF TUSCANY,
and says they were the parents of WILLIAM, COUNT OF ARLES (i.e. COUNT OF
PROVENCE). WILLIAM, this source states, married ADELE (aka BLANCHE),
daughter of GEOFFREY I, COUNT OF ANJOU. They were the parents of
CONSTANCE, who married KING ROBERT II OF FRANCE.
Vol 2 of "Histoire de France . . ." (written in French) agrees with
"Colonial and Revolutionary Lineages in America" in making BERTHE the wife
Raimond III.

It would appear that the above mentioned sources confuse WILLIAM III
TAILLIFER, COUNT OF TOULOUSE with WILLIAM I, COUNT OF PROVENCE, who was his
contemporary. It makes no sense that the Count of Toulouse would be the
father of the Count of Provence as these were two completely separate
non-related lines.
The "Dictionary of Royal Lineage" muddies the waters even more with a
glaring internal inconsitency. As mentioned above, in its chapter on the
Counts of Toulouse, it states that WILLIAM III TAILLIFER and ARSINDE,
daughter of GEOFFREY I, COUNT OF ANJOU, were the parents of CONSTANCE, who
married KING ROBERT II OF FRANCE. Yet, in its chapter on the Counts of
Provence, it states that WILLIAM I, COUNT OF PROVENCE and ADELAIDE OF ANJOU
were the parents of this same CONSTANCE. Both, of course cannot be true,
but this confirms, even more, the confusion that exists betwen these two
Williams.
Summary of evidence as to who were the parents of CONSTANCE: [which is,
after all, what this genealogy seeks to define] The LDS AF says WILLIAM
III, COUNT OF TOULOUSE and ADELA of ANJOU; "Colonial and Revolutionary
Lineages in America" (V1, pp 550-551) says it was WILLIAM, COUNT OF ARLES
and ADELE OF ANJOU; "Colonial and Revolutionary Lineages in America" (V11,
pp 78-80) says it was WILLIAM I, COUNT OF TOULOUSE AND ARLES (sic - These
two realms were never united under one count - at least as far as I know)
and BERTHA OF TUSCANY; The "Dictionary of Royal Lineage" under the Counts
of Anjou says that GEOFFREY I's daughter, ADELE (ARSINDE), married WILLIAM
I, COUNT OF PROVENCE [their children are not listed here]; The "Dictionary
of Royal Lineage" under the Counts of Provence says WILLIAM I, COUNT OF
PROVENCE and ADELE OF ANJOU; The "Dictionary of Royal Lineage" under the
Counts of Toulouse says WILLIAM III TAILLIFER, COUNT OF TOULOUSE and
ARSINDE, dau. of GEOFFREY I, COUNT OF ANJOU. Keep in mind that the titles
"Count of Provence" and Count of Arles" are interchangeable. The
preponderance of evidence is in favor of ADELE OF ANJOU as the mother and,
to a lesser degree, of WILLIAM I, COUNT OF PROVENCE as the father.
Finally, the fact that the COUNT of PROVENCE's mother's name was CONSTANCE
is a strong piece of corraborating evidence.
Finally, a note on the elusive daughter(s) of GEOFFREY I, COUNT OF ANJOU
: The "Dictionary of Royal Lineage" lists two wives for WILLIAM I, COUNT
OF PROVENCE - "Arsinde" and "Adele (Adelaide) of Anjou". The second wife
is given as the mother of the above mentioned CONSTANCE. The first wife of
WILLIAM III TAILLIFER, COUNT OF TOULOUSE is given as "Arsinde, daughter of
GEOFFREY I, COUNT OF ANJOU". They, also, are said to be the parents of
CONSTANCE. The lists of children for these two couples are entirely
different with the lone exception of their inclusion of CONSTANCE. Finally,
in its entry for GEOFFROI I, COUNT OF ANJOU, the "Dictionary of Royal
Lineage" gives his third child as "Adele (Arsinde)" and states that she
married WILLIAM I, COUNT OF PROVENCE. My conclusion is that all these
references are to the same woman, but that she is erroneously listed at the
wife of WILLIAM III TAILLIFER, COUNT OF TOULOUSE.
It should be noted that WILLIAM III TAILLIFER, COUNT OF PROVENCE should
not be confused with WILLIAM III TAILLIFER, COUNT OF ANGOULEME, who lived a
century later. The later was a descendant of WILLIAM II TAILLIFER, COUNT
OF ANGOULEME, who married GERSENDE or GERBERGA, another daughter of
GEOFFREY I, COUNT OF ANJOU. (i.e. the two WILLIAMS - Counts of Provence
and Angouleme, married sisters.)

The above is my analysis of the sources I have had access to. I admit
to being an amature, so please don't flame me too hard ! I would
appreciate any comments regarding the soundness of mt reasoning. Would
also appreciate knowing whether or not some or all of the contradictions
I've encountered (or perhaps fabricated) have been resolved in the arena of
public debate and further research.

One last "trivai" question. What is the significance of the name
"Taillifer"? Is it something like a surname or is it a descriptive term ?
It is curious tha the only two lines I've ever encountered it in are of the
counts of Angouleme and of the counts of Toulouse, but there seems to be no
close relationship between those who bore it.

Today is the first day of the rest of your life ! () Jim

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