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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1995-11 > 0815687073


From: Chris Bennett <>
Subject: Re[2]: Descent from Hugues "l'Abbe"
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 11:44:33 PST


Before dismissing these Carolingian ancestries entirely, you should look at the
work of Christian Settipani, and in particular "Les Ancetres de Charlemagne"
(Paris 1989) [with addenda in Histoire & Genealogie 28 (1990) 19-36.] This
book is based on a comparitive study of all the available material, not just
9th century genealogies, but chronicles, hagiographies, charters and
inscriptions, using the prosopographical techniques of Werner etc and
incorporating the available scholaraly literature. Whether or not you agree
with his specific proposals, I think you will agree that there is a good case
to be made that much of Charlemagne's reported ancestry is based on confused
but genuine material rather than being an outright fabrication.

Werner himself wrote the preface to Settipani & van Kerrebrouck's formidable
"La prehistoire des Capetiens" (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 1993). Settipani's
introductory essay on the section on Pippinid genealogy presents a balanced
survey, pointing out the reasons for believing the 9th century ancestries to be
false or incorrect, but reviewing the possible interpretations of this fact and
pointing out reasons for believing nevertheless that the Carolingians were
connected to earlier families. Part II of this work, to be published
(originally scheduled for this year), will contain much material on early noble
families in France, including the ancestry of the Robertians and an update on
these pre-Carolingian ancestries. It promises to be the definitive
genealogical resource for the period.

As to Hughes l'abbe, Settipani & van Kerrebrouck know of no descendants for the
son of Charlemagne of this name.

Since Settipani's books are often referred to in this group, and they are not
easy to find (in the US anyway) people may be interested to have some ideas on
how to get hold of them. They are definitely worth the effort and the cost.
They are, of course, in French.

"Les Ancetres de Charlemagne" (ISBN 2-906483-28-1). This book may no longer be
in print. The Augustan Society has sometimes had copies. I got my copy
through a friend then living in Paris who contacted the publishers personally
on my behalf. They are: Editions Christian, 5, rue Alphonse Baudin, 75011
Paris. List price (1989) is 195 FF. The same sources can or could supply his
book on descents from antiquity "Nos ancetres de l'antiquite" (Paris 1991).

"La prehistoire des Capetiens" (ISBN 2-9501509-3-4) is available from P. van
Kerrebrouck, 5, rue Kleber, F-59493 Villeneuve d'Ascq, France; unfortunately
I've lost the pricing information but 395 FF comes to mind. This is one volume
of a series on the royal families of France, including the Valois, the Bourbons
etc. Van Kerrebrouck will send you a flyer on the entire set. For US readers,
there is a set in the library at UC Berkeley.

Cheers,
CHris Bennett

_______________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Descent from Hugues "l'Abbe"
Author:
Date: 11/4/95 10:21 AM

<snip>

Seriously, judging from just recent posts on this group, it seems
there is almost no end to fictitious ancestories for, and lines of
descent from, Charlemagne. The Carolingians themselves
seem to have sponsured quite a few in the ninth century, seeking
to prove their descent from the Merovingians, as well as 5th
century Roman prefects: these are all bogus (if you want to find out
what relationship may have existed between the two dynasties, check
E.Hlawitchka, on the ancestors of Charlemagne, also in Karl die GroB,
vol 1). Some years ago I also remember reading an article by a German
scholar who even questioned the validity of their link with St.Arnulf.
But there seem quite a few mentioned recently in this group which look
as if they have been constructed using later romances of the 12-13th
centuries. Many of the 19th and early 20th century compendiums tended
to be very uncritical of the sources they used, hence all their
funky little charts and trees tend to err on the immaginative side.

cheers

rcs

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