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From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <>
Subject: Re: Weis : Ancestral Roots, 7th Edition - Corrections
Date: Mon, 7 Aug 1995 21:34:07 GMT


In a previous article, (Paul M. Gifford) says:

>Regarding Todd Farmerie's excellent comments on Ancestral Roots, I might say
>this about the Vernons:
>
>Clearly the Margaret, daughter of Robert de Stokeport (who lived temp. Richard
>I and who d. 1239, according to Ormerod 3: 388), married an earlier William de
>Vernon. This William de Vernon witnessed an undated deed of Gilbert de
>Bostock (temp. John I), along with Richard, Ralph, and Robert de Vernon.
>Ormerod (3: 133) assumes they are brothers of Warin de Vernon, of Shipbroke,
>and that William de Vernon was the judge of Chester, 1230-1232.
>

Another interpretation that I have seen in a couple of places is that
Vernon of Haddon instead derives from the de Lisle/Vernon family. This
descent makes Richard, father of the above William, the half brother of
Baldwin de Lisle. The Richard, Ralph and Robert are usually given as
William's sons, and not his brothers.

>I've looked at Farrar regarding the Vernons, but don't have my notes. Gilbert
>le Franceys married Hawise de Vernon, according to _Haddon_, and was the
>father of Richard de Vernon. I don't see how a Vernon descent could go
>through Isabel de Harcla.

I hope I did not imply this. A plea roll entry (I think it is) shows a
Matilda holding land (I think Pitchcott, Bucks, but I am not sure) temp.
John. Her son Robert was father of Hawise de Vernon, wife of Gilbert.
Another document (undated, and not proven genuine) shows a Richard de
Vernon granting the hand of Hawise, daughter of Robert, son of Richard de
Vernon to Gilbert le Franceys, son of Ade (Adam?) le Franceys. It has been
suggested that Richard de Vernon, the founder of the Haddon family, married
twice. By his first wife, (I forget her christian name) a daughter and
coheiress of William Avenell, he had (as well as others) the William who
married Margaret Stokeport, and whose sons went into exile. Richard then
married Matilda _____, and had Robert, father of Hawise. Thus this branch
was not the legal heir of Haddon, but it was granted to them on the fall
of the children of William and Margaret.

>
>Clearly there is a line, as you've shown, from Richard de Vernon, alive in
>1292, to his son Richard, who married Eleanor, daughter of Giles de Fenes
>(now, who was he? An illegitimate younger brother of Sir William de Fiennes,
>maybe?), to their son Richard, d. bef. 3 Feb. 1322/3, who m. Maud, daughter of
>William de Camville, who had a son William de Vernon, b. c.1312, d. 1330-1346.
>

This is debated. First, I don't think there is any connection between
Giles de Fenes (sometimes Frenes) and the Fiennes family. More to the
point, there is a question as to whether there was two or three Richards
between Gilbert le Franceys and William Vernon. However, if you accept
Isabella as the christian name of the de Harcla daughter, then it would
appear that there was only two generations.

Richard le Franceys/de Vernon married a sister of Earl Anthony de Harcla.
In 1292, he gave Pitchcott to his son Richard, and daughter in law Eleanor,
and made Eleanor's father Giles de Fines guardian for the couple, who were
minors. In 1312, Richard de Vernon and wife Maud make a grant. Finally,
in 1323, William de Vernon is named, with doweries claimed by Maud, widow
of his father Richard, and Isabel, widow of his grandfather Richard de
Vernon. Thus there are two reconstructions possible:

1.Richard le Franceys/de Vernon m. dau de Harcla

2.Richard de Vernon m1. Eleanor de Fenes, m2 Isabel

3.Richard de Vernon m Maud de Camville

4.William de Vernon

or

1.Richard le F/de V m Isabel de Harcla

2.Richard de V m1. Eleanor de Fenes, m2 Maud de Camville

3.William de Vernon

Farrar presents version 1 in vol. 1, and version 2 in vol. 3., while VCH
Bucks (under Pitchcott) seems to prefer (or at least present it in a way
more consistant with) version 2. In my own opinion (and I just took a
quick pass through my notebooks last night, and wish I could look at Farrar
again) version 2 seems more likely.

>Doesn't the inquisition p.m. of Rhys ap Griffith in 1382 name Joan, wife of
>Richard de Vernon? It seems to me that the index to the particular volume
>with it shows her as appearing on that page, but I couldn't find her name in
>that inquisition.

You don't recall the volume number do you?

>Or is my memory playing tricks on me? The Visitation of
>Staffordshire says that two generations of Vernon wives were Griffiths, so
>there might be something to it.

I think this is a screw-up. The only marriage I know of is between
Richard, son of Juliana (de Pembroke) de Vernon, and Joan, daughter of
Rhys ap Griffith (son).

Todd

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