GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Subject: BRUCE: SQUARE ONE (sort of)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 1995 21:22:55 +0300

These threads tend to get overwhelming, so I'm starting afresh:

Todd Farmerie wrote:
>What is the source for making the mother of Thorfinn and the mother of Macbeth
>the same woman? I have seen speculation that Macbeth was a maternal grandson
>of Malcolm II, but never through the same daughter as married Sigurd.

Alas, my notes do not cite my source; but the following must have come from
J. B. Paul's "The Scots Peerage," Anderson's "The Scottish Nation" or Iain
Moncrieffe's "The Highland Clans"--the basic sources from which I drew my
Bruce charts.

I show Donada (whom we now know from the "Heimskringla" not to have been
his first wife--and not to have been the mother of Brusse) married first to
Sigurd the Stout. Following his death at the Battle of Contarf, she married
Finlay, Mormaor/Earl of Moray and Ross, and had Macbeth MacFinley.
The oldest daughter of Malcolm II (father of Donada) was Bethoc, who
married Crinan the Thane and had Duncan I. Thus were Macbeth (the slayer)
and Duncan (the slayee) cousins.

Meanwhile, having rejected the Robert-the-Bruce descent from Erc, Fergus
mac Earca, etc. (by virtue of the fact that Donada was not Brusse's mother
and her ancestry does not apply), perhaps we can consider some alternate
line of ancestry. How about(?):

1. Ragnvald the Wise
2. Torv-Einar (illegitimate half-brother of Rollo)
3. Torfinn Hausakljuv (Skull-Cleaver) = Grelod Duncansdatter (whose mother
was Groa, daughter of Torstein the Red)
4. Lodve Torfinnsson (Earl of Orkneys) = Edna Kjarvalsdatter (daughter of
Kjarval of Leinster, son of Lorcan, King of Leinster)
5. Sigurd the Stout (Earl of Orkeys) = (1) ???
6. Brusse = Ostrida
7. Rognvald = (1) ???; (2) Felicia of Normandy (no issue)
8. Brusi (b. Orkney, became Norman knight) = Emma of Brittany (Todd
Farmerie questions this Norwegian to French transition--see previous
thread--so this generation is in a state of flux.)
(9. Robert de Brusse = Agnes St. Clair. This generation is probably bogus,
Farmerie identifying this individual as the father of William de Braose.
This, in turn, leaves a break-down also in connecting descent at this
point--as my material identifies this Robert as the father of both William
and Adam, following).
10. Adam de Brus = Emma de Ramsey
11. Sir Robert de Brus
12. Robert de Brus of Cleveland, Skelton, Annandale, etc.
13. Robert de Brus "the Younger"
14. Robert the Noble
15. Robert the Competitor
16. Robert Bruce = Marjorie de Carrick
17. Robert the Bruce

There must be some correct line from Brusse (son of Sigurd) to Robert the
Bruce--mustn't there? :-))
How far back can Robert the Bruce's ancestry be listed with any measure of
confidence? That <sigh> must be the real "square-one" point.

Tom ()

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