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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1990-08 > 0652115230


From: Kay Allen AG <>
Subject: Re: De Toenis,De Cliffords,and Waltheofs
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 1990 08:07:10 -0700


Comments interspersed.

Louis Epstein wrote:
>
> In looking up ancestors of Queen Elizabeth II,I've run into a substantial
> contradiction between the Hull database(which relies in the area in
> question on a work called The House of Clifford among other sources)
> and Burke's Peerage,concerning the line of de Toenis who married into
> the (de) Clifford family and that of an earl named Waltheof.
>
> According to Hull,Margaret de Toeni married Walter FitzRichard Fitzpons,
> and Burke's says that it was through her that the Cliffords acquired the
> castle and name of Clifford.They had a son,Walter,born in 1173,who died
> on the 5th of January 1221(Burke's says he died in the year 1222 with
> no birthdate).
>
> Burke's identifies Margaret only as "dau and heir of Ralph de To(s)ny".

Burkes and Hull are two sources that this list loves to scorn. I do not
believe that there is any evidence to support her alleged parentage. So
she is only Margaret.

Snipped


> The elder Ralph was son of another Ralph,or as spelled at Hull "Ralf";
> on this Hull and Burke's agree.Hull quotes J.H. Round about him,
> indicating that he was the son of his father's first wife(Burke's
> lists two wives and ascribes no maternity and Hull lists no mother),
> a Berenger of Barcelona(no one says WHICH Berenger of Barcelona).
> And this Ralph's father was named Roger,and that Roger's father was
> named Ralph.

Please see the archives concerning the Toeni origins.

Kay Allen AG


>

Snipped.
>
> Anybody have these people straightened out??

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