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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1990-08 > 0651175642


From: Kay Allen AG <>
Subject: Re: Audley
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 1990 11:07:22 -0700


wrote:
>
> Thanks,
>
> As I said, I am speculating as to where Hugh/James d'Audley fits into the
> Audley picture. It's possible that James d'Audley and Ela Longspee's son
> Hugh is the one who was father of Elizabeth, in which case Elizabeth and
> William de Bostock would be half-third(?) cousins. But I can't believe that
> half-second cousins, once removed, would be within a prohibited degree. I
> hoped someone would have enough data on the Audleys to find a Hugh or James
> d'Audley with daughter Elizabeth.

The Audleys are a well-known, well-researched family. The fact that a
dtr. Elizabeth marrying a Bostock isn't seen doesn't mean there is no
such person, but it does cast a shadow.
>
> Regarding your reply on the de Montforts, you show Amaury de Montfort with
> wife Agnes de Garlende. The source from the Internet gives Simon III de
> Montfort as son of Amaury de Montfort and wife Richilde. And Amaury and
> Richilde were parents of Lucienne de Montfort who married Agnes de Garlande.
> So, you and this source do not agree on whom Amaury de Montfort and Agnes de
> Garlande married.

The information comes from the George Andrews Moriarty, a well-known and
well-respected genealogist. I would basically prefer his opinion to that
of an unnamed site on the Internet. The Internet is not the be-all and
end-all of genealogical knowledge, far from it. Would you please be so
kind as to specify the site from whence comes this information and any
sources for this information which it might cite?
>
> The Bostock genealogy and the marriage of Hawise to Sir Warren Bostock comes
> from BASKERVILLE GENEALOGY (1912) by Patrick Hamilton Baskervill. This book
> has been reprinted by Heritage Books, and is available at Heritage, and also
> Barnes and Noble.

So it appears in print and is sold. This proves nothing. Genealogical
Publishing Company in Baltimore publishes and sells genealogical books.
Some of them currently in print aren't worth the powder to blow them
anyplace.

Other Baskerville genealogy comes from ADDITIONAL
> BASKERVILLE GENEALOGY (1917) by Patrick Hamilton Baskervill. This book is
> out of print. P. H. Baskervill reports that the Bostock data in these two
> volumes comes from Ormerod's HISTORY OF CHESHIRE. Dave on GEN-MEDIEVAL
> writes that this second marriage of Hawise to Warren Bostock can be found in
> Ancestry of Elizabeth of York, 142:1399

This book is also chock full of inaccuracies. And in which edition of
Ormerod does this appear? There are two editions. Ormerod is usually
fairly sound, especially in the 2nd or Helsby edition. Could you pleas
provide a citation?
>
> Yes. There was almost a 200-year span between Sir Robert de Baskerville of
> Erdisley/Eardisley and Sir John de Baskervyle of Cheshire. Whether the names
> connecting them will ever be known remains to be seen. I believe, although
> I've been disputed, that the Baskervyles of Cheshire are probably descendants
> of Robert de Baskerville of Erdisley/Eardisley, and that Robert was a
> descendant of Nicholas de Bacqueville-en-Caux, Normandy. Nicholas' son,
> William Martel de Basqueville, sometimes called Geoffrey Martel, is found on
> Battle Abbey lists. Another son of Nicholas was Walter de St. Martin, who on
> the lists is thought to be the one called "Sire de St. Martin." Almost
> certainly, sons or grandsons of brothers of Nicholas were in the battle,
> i.e., Richard and Robert de Neville, Fulk d'Aunou, and Robert de Courcy, and
> at least two brothers-in-law, or sons of sisters and brothers-in-law, Robert
> Fitz Erneis and Fulk de Boneval. These names are found on Battle Abbey
> lists. Do I hear someone saying, "for what it's worth"?

Yes, which is not very much indeed, as others are no doubt telling you.

But I ask, would
> William have let young bloods like these go to waste? For what reason did
> they hold, or their parents hold, their fiefs if not to be called upon to
> fight?


>
> If Orderic is correct, Nicholas de Bacqueville's father, Baudric le Teuton,
> married a niece of Gilbert de Brionne (ancestor of the de Clares). Nicholas
> married a niece of Gunnora, wife of Richard I, Duke of Normandy. According
> to William of Jumieges, Gunnora's brother Herfast was father of the nieces
> for whom Gunnora is noted. Osbern de Crepon, nephew of Gunnora and father of
> William Fitz Osbern, was Nicholas' brother-in-law. Another niece of Gunnora
> was ancestor of the Montgomerys. One of Gunnora's sisters was ancestor of
> the Beaumonts and another of the Giffards. These families were represented
> in the Battle of Hastings. It would be ridiculous to believe that Nicholas'
> was not.

When you have studied medieval history and genealogy for over
twenty-five years, it will be interesting to see if you are quite so
cock-sure of yourself and these theories :-)
>
> Nicholas de Baskerville's son, William Martel or Geoffrey Martel de
> Baskerville, is supposed to have received the name martel, meaning "hammer,"
> as award for bravery. The Baskerville shield, which is the same for the
> Erdisley Baskervilles and Cheshire Baskervyles (the crests are different),
> shows "the head" of three "hammers." I believe that the Baskervyles of
> Cheshire are a branch of the Erdisley Baskervilles. It is possible that John
> Baskervyle of Cheshire was from a branch of the family of Thomas Baskerville
> of Shropshire, son of Ralph of Erdisley (living 1194).
>
> Patrick Hamilton Baskervill's data on the descent of Baskervyles of Old
> Withington, Cheshire, comes from Ormerod's HISTORY OF CHESHIRE.

Citation, please.


The data for
> a chart showing descent from Sir John de Baskervyle of Old Withington was
> taken "From Booth's Pedigrees, and the Visitations, with additions and
> corrections from the Plea and Recognizance, Rolls, Charters, Wills, and from
> the parochial registers, and an original pedigree communicated by John Glegg,
> Esq."

Have you consulted this source to see if it does state what it is
claimed to state?

Have you tried to verify all these statements or are you just taking
them as Gospel? From your reaction, I'd guess that you haven't tried to
verify them independently, yet.
>
> As recently as 1912, Old Withington in Cheshire was still owned by Baskervyle
> descendants whose name had become Glegg when John Baskervyle of Old
> Withington and Blackden, esqr., married Mary Glegg, and assumed the name of
> Glegg, pursuant to the will of Wm. Glegg (1706-1758). Later generations
> living at Old Withington called themselves Baskervyle-Glegg.
>
> Baskervilles did not appear out of thin air. Your help is appreciated, but I
> believe I could recognize "a big fat fairy tale."

I am not going to hold my breath on that one :-) Your critical
facilities still need much reading and growing with experience in this
area.

Kay Allen AG
>
> Kay

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