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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1990-03 > 0637184813


From: Kay Allen AG <>
Subject: Re: Maud de Prendergast
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 1990 11:46:53 -0800


Comments interspersed.

Douglas Richardson wrote:
>
> Hi Kay:
>
> I'm aware that the secondary sources are at variance as to
> whether it was daughter or sister of Earl Richard de Clare that
> married Robert de Quincy and Raymond Fitz William. I haven't
> had a chance to study the original sources to see exactly what
> they say. Until I do, I can only offer my opinion that the same
> woman was involved in both marriages. I have only seen one
> original source quoted by anyone and that original source states
> that Robert de Quincy was Earl Richard's son-in-law. Orpen
> seems to make it clear that both Robert and Raymond were granted
> the Constableship of Leinster and the property of the Duffrey,
> co. Leinster in marriage by Earl Richard. Since we know that
> Robert de Quincy's wife was widowed shortly before Raymond Fitz
> William requested the Earl's "sister"'s hand in marriage, I have
> to assume that the same woman is involved in both marriages.

Which Orpen material are you citing? The material I have said theat
Robert whatever-name-you-choose was taking the constableship until the
heiress was of age or until she married someone who could take over the
task. If Earl Richard agreed to this, it was in the nature of a
settlement and it wouldn't matter if it was the aunt's husband or if it
was the mother's second husband, especially if Duffrey was held by the
sergeanty of being the Constable. Do we know for positively darn sure
that Duffrey was her maritagium?

> Under normal circumstances, Robert de Quincy's widow would have
> retained the Duffrey, particularly if it was considered her
> maritagium. And had she died, the Duffrey would have been held
> by her child's guardian until the child came of age. But it
> would not have been granted to her aunt's husband, which you
> suggest was the case. The Duffrey would presumably only go to
> Raymond Fitz William if he was married to Robert de Quincy's
> widow.

See above for answers to these posits.

snip
>

As for Earl Richard's daughter, Aline, yes, you are correct that
> it is possible that she could be the daughter of Earl Richard
> who married Robert de Quincy. I have an open mind about that
> possibility. I say this for the simple reason that Robert de
> Quincy's wife's name is not known and we know that Earl Richard
> had a daughter named Aline in Ireland in this period.
>
> As for the parentage of Robert de Quincy, it is uncertain where
> he fits into the Quincy family tree. On chronological basis
> alone, I would assume that Robert was the son of Saher de
> Quincy, of Long Buckby, co. Northampton, by his wife, Maud de
> Senlis. This couple had two identified sons, Saher, who
> evidently died without issue, and Robert, the eventual heir,
> whose career is well documented. That leaves the possibility
> that Saher and Maud may have had two sons named Robert. Two
> sons named Robert actually occur in a later generation of the
> Quincy family, so that possibility needs to be considered. But,
> I leave that issue for another day.

Thank you very much for taking the time to answer this problem.

Kay Allen AG
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson
>

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