AUSTRIA-L Archives

Archiver > AUSTRIA > 1998-02 > 0888154607


From: Lincoln/Hornburg< >
Subject: [AUSTRIA-L] Lateral thinking (abbreviations)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:36:47 +0100


Hi Joe!....,And other international Bohemians too. I wish you all well.

Schön Sonntag!

'have been working hard in the "real world" this week, but Lidenko et al.,
von Klaudy and von Wallernstadt, have stayed put on the back pile on my
desk, and also, right ON the table, at my good neighbors' (both 80+ and
still going strong).

I THINK I'VE GOT IT!

See below: d. Tucuman, Argentina (Max 1890-1916)

See below: m. 1874 (when Lidenko-1 was 25 - of a marriageable age)

m.? d.?

--------

Ergo: d stands for "died"; m stands for "married"; ML stands for "marriage
license".

! Your cousin, or someone helping her, was trying to be of HELP and they
have ALREADY TRANSLATED the German abbreviations into English!

All the m's indicate a marriageable age for that person.

What I previously told you (ml = "meine liebe so and so") - is used in
letters and would not be seen in a family tree.

Assuming (for the moment) this is correct, i.e. English already, there
remains: T.U. and Fr. after the name of the eldest child, Karl. Karl died
at age 24, a life one year shorter than that of his brother Max (dead at
25) in Argentina. And this young Max was only nine years old when Karl died.

The family was well off - in land holding at least. This is indicated via
the words, "Ritter" and "von", (before the surnames). The Ritter were a
land-aristocracy, exempt from ordinary military service, unlike the
peasants. The Ritter, an inherited occupation, were permanent protectors of
a royal household. (The Ritter system ended (officially) here in Germany
around 1806, but other titles live on to this day: Graf (Earl) and Freiherr
(Baron). The Ritter, with time, became the lower nobility.

(uh, oh; at the beginning of this message, "Hi your Highness" may have been
more appropriate than, "Hi Joe".

In later years, Karl as eldest male would have been in line to inherit the
family wealth. Hence the title Freiherr, (Fr). It means Baron.., a Lord of
the Manor so to speak. Belonging to the family was probably a RITTERGUT:
nobleman's estate.

In contrast, my family in southern Bohemia were by no means Freiherren.
They were the normal merchants, soldiers, and peasants, farming land which
was made available to them by the goodness/pragmatism of the local Royals,
the Schwarzenbergs.

As eldest son, Karl was due to inherit, and would have been educated,
hence: T.U. = Technical University. In those times, he would have begun his
university education in his teens.
____________________________________________________________________

Now, my two, good, 80-year old neighbors have had a hardcopy of your
message all week. They have poured over thick, old, German reference books.
They want me to mention re T.U, the Telegraphenunion. It was the dawn of
telegraphy, and this Union was founded in 1862 (Brockhaus Encyclopedia).
Karl would have been 13. (?)

and,

Re: M.L. Männliche Linie (male line, i.e. spouse from the male side of
the family) Check out Maria's husband, Norman-Auvenhove. (?) French
connection? Normandy?

also,

Re: M.L. Mitglied der Linie (member of family line)

(??????????????)

So-called inter-marriages were common, (like Franklin Roosevelt marrying
his cousin, Eleanor.) Not so good for the gene pool.

or

Bad News: it's possible, the ML is really MC or even something else,
because in COPYING old German scrip, what you see is not what is. E can
look like a C: C looks like an L.

The Rittergut (the estate) may still be intact. Surely the Communists would
have confiscated it, and today it may be a school, orphanage, etc. One sees
on TV, wealthy (titled!) Americans claiming run-down estates and restoring
them. As a rule, only Czech citizens can be property owners. I've read of
one German obtaining Czech citizenship in order to buy back his former home
near the border. He is the exception. The view out the window may not have
changed, but everything else, especially. language.

By the way, I noticed "Marie Wagner von WALLERNSTADT". (!) (Stadt is
city/town.) There is a Wallern, almost on the border, in southern Bohemia
which is in our part of the boondocks.

CONCLUSION: Of little help. You need some ORIGINAL documentation. To start,
check out the "middle Bohemian" archives (excluding the city of Prague):

Statni oblastni archiv v Praze
Horska 7
128 00 Praha 2 - Nove Mesto
Czech Republic

I am also posting this with message the Austrians who are as smart as they
are charming. Maybe someone there will see what we have not.

And, Sir Joe, if you return, and within the next 30 years, manage to
refurbish the Klaudy castle, I know two eighty-somethings who would like an
invitation to tea.

Best, and let us (all) know if anything turns up,

Catherine, Günther and Ursula

------------------------------------

At 21:46 17.02.1998 -0500, you wrote:
>Catherine,
> Thanks for the reply regarding the abbreviations. Some of your
>meanings seem to make sense but others don't. For instance T.U. Fr.;
>Tecchnical University seems right because most of the men in the family
>appear to have graduated from College ( Chemists on my side; lawyers,
>solicitors and Knights on the other), probably from Charles University
>in Prague. Since T.U. Fr. is used for males, then Frau for the Fr.
>doesn't seem proper.
> M.L. looks like it could have stood for either of your definitions,
>since the family comes from a long line of 'members of parliament'. It
>could also mean 'my dear' since in appears before the names of both
>males and females. Here is the part of the tree in which these
>abbreviation most appear:
>
>Children of Lidenko Ritter von Klaúdy (1849-1911)
> and Marie Waagner von Wallernstadt (m. 1874):
>
>1. Karl 1875-1899T.U. Fr.
>
>2. Elizabeth1876
>m. - M.L. von Falkhausen
>
>3. Lidenko1878-1949
>m. 1903 - M.L. Emma Stohr
>
>4. Maria1882
>m. 1904 - M.L. Ludwig Norman-Auvenhove
>
>5. Max1890-1916
>d. Tucuman, Argentina
>
> These abbreviations are very confusing, to say the least. Does this
>clarify the meanings for you? I beleive that the Maria above, is the
>person who sent the tree to my father. The handwriting is that of my
>cousin, who copied it from the original before the original was lost, so
>she could have made some mistakes when she copied it.
>
>Help me if you can,
>Joe Klaudi
>
>
>
>==== GERMAN-BOHEMIAN Mailing List ====
>Have you considered joining the Rootsweb Genealogical Data
>Cooperative?
> http://www.rootsweb.com/
>
>
>

This thread: