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Archiver > APG > 2004-12 > 1102051734


From: "Natalie Cottrill" <>
Subject: RE: [APG] Citing Sources - Original, Derived, etc.
Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 22:29:06 -0700
In-Reply-To: <004001c4d8d6$1c6ec940$6401a8c0@DICK>


Richard [mailto:] penned Thursday, December 02,
2004 6:19 PM:

>> P.S.: I have given up on including *any* URLs in citations. They are
seldom the same from one day to the next. Worse, the URL will be valid but
the information is no longer what it was. And it really doesn't add anything
to say that you looked at it on such-and-such a date, now does it? <<

Hi Richard,

Maybe some know about this, but maybe they don't ... so I'll sneak 10
minutes away from this report on families in the burned county of Overton,
Tennessee (which is hurting my head anyway), to mention at least one reason
why it is good to add the date and URL.

I put in both the accessed date and the URL in my citations so that if I
need to, I can try to recover the data from some internet archive. One such
archive is commonly known as the "Wayback Machine." Sometimes I wonder,
after a few months have gone by, "hmm, was Jane Doe on the same list of
marriage abstracts that I found on the Internet which included her brother,
John Doe?" Then I type in the URL (from my footnote) and ... yup, you're
right ... it isn't there. So ...I look at the date that I viewed it (from my
footnote), and then I hop on over to the "Wayback Machine,"
http://www.archive.org/web/web.php , and type in the URL of the page I'd
seen, and hope that it had been spidered and archived about the time that I
last viewed it. It often works, and then I'm a happy camper ;)

Well, I hope this tidbit helps my genealogist colleagues out there! Now, if
I could just find a magical archive for all those no longer extant pre-1860
Overton County records :(

PS. Richard, for your compilation, if you're taking a poll ... I vote for
slimmed down citations in the final copy to be circulated to relatives, BUT
that you create and keep a paper draft copy that includes "it all in there"
with regard to the citations. I know I've gone back and used "draft"
manuscripts (the notes and such taken BEFORE the final work was put into
"published and circulated" form) and I've found some really cool goodies in
the draft that had been edited out of the final manuscript ... so maybe
you'd consider having at least one copy with every word in it? Thank you,
Richard, for all your hard work preserving the Pence family history, et.
al. - I've consulted your online notes before <grin> for research - cited
your site, too!

Aching for a time travel machine that is set to land in Overton, TN, I sign
off ...

Natalie Cottrill
ProGenealogists, Inc.
PO Box 900188
Sandy, UT 84090-0188
(801) 596-3230 - Main Office
(801) 699-9470 - Mobile
(801) 596-3380 - Fax
http://www.progenealogists.com

ProGenealogists, Inc. 2004, All rights reserved.

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard A. Pence [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 6:19 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [APG] Citing Sources - Original, Derived, etc.


Natalie Cottrill <> wrote while discussing
citations:

> To some degree, this probably boils down to each of us considering
> what is practical for our situation, while also striving to be as
> consistent
> as possible.

I have been struggling with this issue and I think Natalie has made an
excellent point.

For many years I have been working on a compilation of the descendants of my
immigrant 5th great grandfather and his four sons who came with him in 1749
from what is now a part of Germany. I am acutely aware that proper
documentation is critical, but that part of the compilation is becoming the
"tale" (sic) that wags the dog. (I have groused about this to whomever will
listen. Once I thought of entered the NGS writing contest with the story of
my 4th great and his children and grandchildren. Then I realized there was
10,000-word limit. At that moment the footnotes alone were *12,000 words* -
and growing!)

One day I tell myself, you have to go back and sharpen up some of those
endnotes. A few days later I find myself thinking that there has to be a way
to keep the seemilngly endless notes from overwhellming the narrative.

In another message today, Kevin Sholder gave us his interpretation of a
"correct" census citation for today's world:

Mortimer Edwards household, 1880 U.S. Federal Census,
Winona County, Minnesota, population schedule, town of
Winona, enumeration district [ED] 289, supervisor's
district [SD] 1, sheet 19, dwelling 172, family 182. Digital
scan of micropublication T9, roll 637 from the U.S. National
Archives and Records Administration, Washington, D.C.]
(Online: Heritage Quest), <http://www.heritagequestonline.com/>;,
subscription database, accessed 2 Dec 2004.

At this stage in my compilation I have pretty solid information on slightly
more than 1,000 individual descendants (generations 1, 2, 3 and 4). There
probably is at least one census citation for each of these and as many as
five or more for some individuals.

Do my many cousins - close and far - really want to know all of what is in
Kevin's note? (And can I afford the printing bill?)

I have collected census (and other) records for over 30 years - first simple
abstracts, then photocopies of the microfilm made at NARA or an FHC and -
now - from on-line access. Admitedly, I neglected proper sourcing at first -
and even later. To use my rationale "back when" (when I was always in a
hurry), "I can always find this again later if I need to. It will only take
a few minutes."

And now I am still wrestling with my problem. Sure, I can go through the
entire compilation and do a "correct" citation, looking them up again if
necessary, for each of two or three thousand census notes. Or I can take
some pity on my readers and let the footnote read:

Morton Edwards household, 1880 U.S. Cen. (Pop. Sched.) of
Winona, Winona Co., Minn., p. 18.

And I would bet you that nearly every one of my cousins is sharp enough to
find that reference if they should care to do so. (It should go without
saying that if there are irregularities or questions about a record, the
issue would be a part of the narrative or the note. I have noticed, though,
that if you don't state the obvious on the Net, some one will state it for
you.< g>)

What would you do?? "Textbook" notes - or "practical" notes?

Richard A. Pence, 3211 Adams Ct, Fairfax, VA 22030
Voice 703-591-4243 Fax 703-352-3560
Pence Family History <http://www.pipeline.com/~richardpence/>;

P.S.: I have given up on including *any* URLs in citations. They are seldom
the same from one day to the next. Worse, the URL will be valid but the
information is no longer what it was. And it really doesn't add anything to
say that you looked at it on such-and-such a date, now does it?



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